Featured Manchin climate bill and EV Tax credit reinstatement

Robb Maurer created an 'online' petition to ask that plug-in hybrids be removed from this law: Petition · Stop excessive hybrid vehicle subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 · Change.org

A former Prius Prime owner who traded it on for our current EV, I agree with his sentiment that 7 kWh battery in a Plug-In hybrid (PHEV) is too little for a subsidy. I would agree with a PHEV having three times that battery capacity and 1/2 to 1/3d the gas range so EV usage would be encouraged by the vehicle performance specifications. However, a perfect petition should never become the enemy of good enough an I donated to the petition budget.



GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

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This is a good example of people not being happy with anything.

 

I listen to Mr. Mauer daily. Unfortunately I don't agree with his thoughts on this issue. In 10 years, when this bill would sunset, then I might.

 

Most PHEVs are used as “compliance vehicles” for people who do not understand what HOV stands for.

Still….Two things that I like about the curiously named “Inflation Reduction Act of 2022” are the caps on the buy-in price (which should be lowered to $50,000 - MSRP, before the kickback) and the income caps, which should be graduated to those incomes higher than the current per-capita income (60K ish.)
A minimum battery size would have been helpful.
Still….a little better than what we almost got, and the higher taxes WILL actually throttle the economy enough to lower inflation.

Hopefully not to 1932 levels.

 

Nonsense. Europe had unrestricted subsidies for PHEVs, and the result was an increase in carbon emissions. Without a requirement on how to fuel them, people weren't plugging in. The most selling PHEVs there weren't much better than the non-plug in version when in hybrid mode, and emitted more than the model most likely to have been purchased without the subsidy.

Looking at PHEVs like the PP here, the out going $4000+ credit was more than enough to cover the cost of the battery pack. Under the new bill, it could get $7500. People without home charging have bought the PP because incentives brought the price below that of the Prius.

The proposed used car credit has a private individual only clause. Maybe put PHEVs in with used BEVs for the bill. If a business really wants a PHEV, they have other means of defraying the cost.

Adding PHEV specific limits will add to the cost of administrating the regulation. Which is less likely than PHEVs getting cut from the bill.

There just isn't a way to ensure the PHEVs bought with the credit will be plugged in. As a climate bill, the main goal is to reduce ghg emissions. It would probably work better for those areas with poor infrastructure to install that infrastructure than hand out $7500 for a Jeep that gets 20mpg combined in hybrid mode.

That Jeep gets 49mpge for 22 miles in EV. The Escape PHEV might be the only other one made in NA. Is Rav4 Prime and Lexus production planned for here? Would Ford bring the Fusion Energi back with this bill to bank some CAFE credits?
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2022&year2=2023&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&cbvtplugin=Plug-in+Hybrid&YearSel=2022-2023&MakeSel=&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=&VehTypeSel=Plug-in+Hybrid&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50

 

A 60mpge cut off only excludes PHEVs. A few truck BEVs are in the 60's. A F150 BEV getting 66mpge is far better than the ICE model.

The PHEVs above that limit don't need the full $7500 they would get under the proposed bill.

 

Son has a plug in, plugs in to his solar which is still positive when he gets home. Works 40 miles away. Drives to work mostly for free on his EV charge, regen and efficient driving. Unfortunately no charging at work.

He sold a 200k plus Prius non plug in. Bought the PIP used. Only downside is number of passengers, He is pleased. He has reduced his carbon footprint.

They are RRR practitioners.

Don't let the good pass in pursuit of the not now achievable perfect. As more competition emerges in EVs and prices drop and Vietnamese and Chinese manufacturers enter the North American market and the big 3 get there too, profit margins should drop and that is the time to remove the PHEV subsidy.

Yes you have people paying $25k for a used compliance vehicle to get into the HOV lanes.

Now pass the darn bill. It isn't what I'd want, it is all I might get.

 

like any bill, there's good, bad and ugly. it's never going to meet everyones approval, but it's better than nothing

 

How is Prius Prime going to get any credit under the new bill? I doubt anything other than Tesla will initially get any credit.

 

I agree with you, and am annoyed that trucks have a higher price limit than cars in the bill.

But trucks and SUVs are what people are buying. They are what the car companies profit most on. Cut them from incentives and lose their support, and no incentives may come to law.

I posted this before the thread merging.
https://www.leafscore.com/auto/best-american-made-evs-to-watch-in-2022/
It's an older article looking at what was suppose to be available this year. So it misses some models(Mach-E), and lists others that are delayed or dead It does show that there is plenty of non-Teslas that are going to qualify. NA production of the ID.4 should have started. Nearly everything from Ford and GM will qualify. Vinfast is planning to have a factory producing by 2024 in the US.

 

Weird that Toyota USA was recently lobbying Congress for EV tax credit extension, just to be left out of the Bill.
The issue is this Bill is obviously a handout to FORD/GM who want focus on the cars that they want to make, and give them the advantage.

 

dup

 

From today's Wall Street Journal:
The Schumer-Manchin tax bill’s rich electric-vehicle subsidies are a boon for auto makers, but they come with a hitch: It’s unlikely any electric vehicle on the market today would qualify for the $7,500 tax credit because of conditions in the bill on material manufacturing. This will be one policy where Democratic promises of permitting reform meet the road.
The bill removes the current cap of 200,000 electric vehicles per manufacturer that can receive the credits and imposes an income limit of $225,000 for individuals. It also establishes a price limit to qualify for vans, SUVs and pickups ($80,000) and sedans ($55,000). What a relief that taxpayers won’t be subsidizing electric Porsches for millionaires.
But the biggest change is that the credit going forward will be contingent on where its battery materials are made. To qualify for $3,750 of the credit, an increasing share of a vehicle’s battery minerals such as lithium and nickel must be extracted or processed in the U.S. or in a country with which the U.S. has a free-trade agreement, starting at 40% in 2023 and increasing to 80% in 2027.
The other half of the credit will only be available for vehicles in which a majority of its battery components are made in North America, starting at 50% in 2023 and growing to 100% by 2029. Yet about 80% to 90% of battery components now are made in China, which also refines 68% of the world’s nickel, 73% of cobalt, 93% of manganese and 100% of the graphite in EV batteries.
Most of the world’s critical minerals are also mined in countries such as Russia, China, Indonesia and the Democratic Republic of Congo with which the U.S. doesn’t have free-trade agreements. Mr. Manchin insisted on these content requirements to ensure the U.S. doesn’t become dependent on China for critical minerals and batteries as Europe has on Russia for natural gas.
But green activists say these requirements for the EV credit are too aggressive. “All it does is negate the tax credit,” a Center for Biological Diversity government liaison told E&E News, adding that the U.S. supply chain “just doesn’t exist right now.” It also won’t ever develop if regulators keep vetoing projects and greens use litigation to stop them.
The Biden Administration has blocked or delayed more than a half dozen mining projects. In January the Administration revoked federal leases for the Twin Metals mine in Minnesota that contains copper, nickel and cobalt. The U.S. Forest Service in June recommended a region-wide ban on mineral mining in the Superior National Forest.
Also in Minnesota, legal challenges and permitting headaches are holding up the PolyMet copper and nickel mine, which has undergone more than a decade of environmental review. Green groups have sued to block a lithium mining project in Nevada. California recently imposed a tax on in-state lithium production, which mining companies say could make projects unprofitable.
These are merely some of the regulatory and legal obstacles keeping critical minerals in the ground. China dominates mineral refining and battery component production because it has invested heavily in mineral extraction and because it doesn’t impose steep regulatory barriers as the U.S. and Europe do.
Unless Congress and the Biden Administration fast-track permitting and remove litigation barriers, most EVs in the future won’t qualify for the tax credit. It’s their choice.