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I want a minivan...

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by Isaac Zachary, Jul 20, 2022.

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  1. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    I keep throwing around the idea of trading the Avalon for a minivan. As a family of 4, the Avalon works until we need to transport more than one other person. Around town the wife can also take the Prius (or I take it and she the Avalon) but she won't drive on any road faster than 35mph. There have been a time or two we've rented a van or minivan, which is getting harder to do due to availability issues at the local rental places within an hour from here.

    But the other part of me doesn't want to give up the Avalon hybrid. 40mpg and spacious everything is awesome. I also really like the pseudo 6 speed for all the mountain passes around here, much better then the B mode on the Prius in my opinion.

    Trying to decide one way or another and deciding what minivan to get I don't want to spend more on a minivan. If I have to spend a whole bunch more, forget it. According to KBB I should be able to sell my Avalon for $12,000 or close to it. I don't know if I can, but would it be worth the try?

    If I did, one minivan I have my eyes on is a MAZDA5 with a 6 speed manual, one year older than the Avalon, about the same number of miles and for $9,000 at a dealership, albeit out-of-state. I love manuals, and this seems to be the most efficient minivan I could get for a fairly straight trade.

    But then again, it's rated at only 28mpg on the highway, 12 less than the Avalon, which if we average it with city driving would be about $1,000 more per year in fuel if gas stays at $5 per gallon. It also only has one more seat, which the seats may be cramped, unlike the Avalon's seats, as I've never been in a MAZDA5 so don't really know.

    The way I look at it, I probably won't get $12,000 for the Avalon, and after taxes I may end up even as far as trading the Avalon for the MAZDA5 goes. One more seat and a manual transmission traded for worse fuel mileage...

    Decisions, decisions...
     
    #1 Isaac Zachary, Jul 20, 2022
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Mazda5 is not a bad little bus, but the emphasis is on little. I would not see that as enough of a size upgrade, personally.

    We rent minivans as needed... and while that's been less easy lately, I don't want to give up the easy driving and good mpg of our sedan (coincidentally a Mazda 6) for seats that we really only need for about 1000 miles a year.

    The rental situation has been improving. I feel qualified to say that because I also rent a few cars each month for business travel.
     
    #2 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jul 20, 2022
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  3. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    Ya, it's only one more seat. A lot of other minivans have 7 or 8 seats. I miss the old days of having 9 seater vans and SUV's (and 6 seater sedans). We once rented a 12 seat van.

    Still, renting has gotten expensive! The $1,000 per year in added fuel costs in the Mazda could easly be surpassed by a few days of renting a minivan. I just priced on Budget the cost to rent a minivan for a weekend next month and it comes to $1,112 before any insurance or waiver or extra mile costs from Friday to Monday! And the I can't find a large van option anywhere nearby at all.

    Another option would be a Caravan or similar with 7 or 8 seats. But then the fuel mileage would be even less and give up the manual transmission, unless I went really old with an old stick shift Chevy Astro, Ford Aerostar or Toyota Previa, but with even worse fuel mileage plus repair costs, assuming I can find one.

    Of course I would still have the ol' Prius with all it's pros and cons, including high mileage problems (battery, oil burning, dead cat, poor interior, etc.).
     
    #3 Isaac Zachary, Jul 20, 2022
  4. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    It's not cheap, I'll give you that.

    The last one I had was a Chrysler Pacifica. I think I spent around $750 for a week in it. Family vacation in Massachusetts, we probably put 800 miles on it round trip.

    That van is quite a nice drive and it had a lot of genuinely useful features not seen on other car brands or types. Say what you will about Chrysler, they've finally got the minivan dialed in. I'm just not sure I'd own it with real age & miles on it, you know? Another point for rental.
     
    #4 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jul 20, 2022
  5. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    I also just found out the car rental places are only open on weekends here, Saturdays and Sundays only, as if being open for only a couple hours a day were already too much.
     
    #5 Isaac Zachary, Jul 20, 2022
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Mazda5 isn't really a minivan. In other markets it is in the MPV segment. Other models in that segment are the Prius v and C-max, which are both available with a third row seat overseas.
     
    #6 Trollbait, Jul 21, 2022
  7. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    The MAZDA5 is also available with 7 seats over seas. The thing is, the Avalon holds 5 people and a lot of stuff. I don't need to trade it for another vehicle that holds 5 people and a lot of stuff. 6 seats is ok. 7 better, 8 awesome, etc. If I need more cargo space I can always add a trailer or cargo box or both. I can't transport people on a trailer or in a cargo box though, at least not legally.

    If only the overseas versions were available here, but they aren't.
     
    #7 Isaac Zachary, Jul 21, 2022
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    They are called MPV for multiple person vehicle. They don't carry much cargo when the seats are fully loaded with passengers. Have you seen the Mazda5 in person. I like the form factor, but that rear seat is almost for children only. I wouldn't want to be back there for long trips.

    As for overseas cars, the hybrid minivans Toyota has been selling for years in Japan are bigger than the Mazda5.
     
    #8 Trollbait, Jul 21, 2022
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  9. mmmodem

    mmmodem Senior Taste Tester

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    Sister had a Mazda 5. Because of the 4+2 seating arrangement. She only had more cargo space than my Prius with 4 people. But if she had to carry 5 at least one of them has to be a child or a mother-in-law because the +2 seats in the third row has no leg room. In addition, the seating layout for 5 cuts cargo space in half so that my Prius and perhaps even a full size sedan like an Avalon would have the same cargo space or less.

    Thus, the Mazda5 is impractical for a family that regularly carries 5 plus cargo. This is a rather narrow use case but matched my family of 5 when we bought our Prius. The 5 did not work well for my sister either as fuel economy was in the mid to upper twenties and offered hardly more space for her family of 4. Any compact SUV could match it for interior space with more ground clearance and similar fuel economy on a 4 cyl, more if it were hybrid. It is a tall and heavy minivan. There is no Mazda zoom zoom. I'd bet you, your Avalon hybrid is faster and handles at least as well.

    All other minivans except one have big thirsty V6's that would put you in the low 20's and even teens for fuel economy. The Sienna is the only minivan to get with 36 mpg. Unfortunately, there is a huge markup or a long waiting list. I'm gonna wait. I'm hoping 2 years will allow me to purchase one at a reasonable priced.

    Edit: forgot about the Pacifica Plug in, also has long waiting list.
     
    #9 mmmodem, Jul 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
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  10. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Long-time mini-van owner. I traded in my Pathfinder SUV which was then only available as 5 seater and 2 doors to a Quest minivan as our family size grew. We always had a mini-van as our go-to car for people and cargo haulers. Nissan Quest twice, Grand Caravan, then Sienna. When our last minivan, Sienna, was decommissioned, I looked for a replacement minivan, but could not find one in our budget and model and year we wanted. Ended up buying a used Pathfinder SUV which now came as a hybrid, with three rows 7 seaters, and 4 doors. After having it for 3 years, we miss our minivan so much that we want to trade the SUV for a minivan but did not want to go back to a gas guzzler. The only two options currently available are the new Toyota Sienna hybrid and Chrysler Pacifica PHEV. But I missed the opportunity. It is now almost impossible to find either of them at a reasonable price.

    We had, both 7-seater minivans and an SUV and also an 8-seater minivan, but I have never seen 6 seater car since our old Ford Taurus which came with a front bench seat that sits three. I don't think they make the front bench seat cars anymore?
     
    #10 Salamander_King, Jul 21, 2022
  11. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Pretty sure the 2012 Ford Crown Victoria was the last one.
     
    #11 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jul 21, 2022
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  12. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    My brother, who's over 6ft tall, claims the rear is plenty big for adults. But the reality is I have never tried to get into one myself and have been under the same impression that the rear would be way small. Before getting one I would like to get into one just to be sure it would work. The boys aren't that short either and aren't getting any shorter.

    Again, doesn't do me any good unless I decide to move the family to Japan.

    But we're a family of 4 that regularly carries either 4 people and groceries/cargo or just passengers. There may be a time or two in the future where we need to carry a lot of people and cargo, which is something the Avalon and Prius also cannot do. At least I could put a trailer or cargo box on the MAZDA5, but I can't put another seat in the Avalon or Prius.

    Ya, the fuel economy is a problem. But on the other hand, getting 40mpg but making twice the trips equates to 20mpg. Renting a minivan for over $1,000 per weekend is also expensive, especially when I have to drive some 100 miles in my car to find a rental place that is both open and has a minivan I can rent.

    But the total price of a minivan is the problem. If it gets good fuel mileage, it costs a fortune. If it doesn't I can get away without having to have a car payment.

    This deffinitely is not a selling point for me and I'd be fine with the Mazda even if it had 25hp. For one, I've never been one to like fast speeds, everyone that knows me says I drive like Grandpa Grunt. My wife is even slower. I go the speed limit, but I don't like blasting up to it. Second, I live in a small town with an average speed limit of 25mph. Once I hit the highway that's up to 65mph, there are no stops for over 60 miles between towns. The only place that I need to get up to speed is whenever I first get on the highway. And there are no on ramps here, it's the gradual 35mph, then 45 mph, then 55 mph then eventually 65 mph posted speed limits as the highway leaves town.

    I've been in the back of some larger SUV's and have not been impressed. Maybe the MAZDA5 also has a small back seat, but it seems when I get in the rear of anything other than a Suburban or a Van or regular Minivan the third row seat is very cramped for an adult. The difference being the SUV guzzles way more fuel or costs way more. At least with the MAZDA5 it's possible to get 30mpg on the highway. I also am not an SUV lover at all. If I go with such a large expensive vehicle, I'd rather have a full sized van that really has the space for everyone and everything.
     
    #12 Isaac Zachary, Jul 21, 2022
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  13. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Another bit to consider: The Mazda 5 will never ask for a new hybrid battery.

    Your Avalon will, someday...
     
    #13 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jul 21, 2022
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  14. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Yeah, third-row seats in the minivan are somewhat cramped in all minivans we have owned. It worked fine for our kids and short and lean adults but would not be comfortable for a tall and big person. This is also true for mid-size SUVs like Pathfinder we now have. But for us, carrying more than 5 people at a time became extremely rare, so we can live without the third row. What we miss most on minivans is the ability to remove or stow-away seats to create a flat cargo bed to haul large items which otherwise would only fit in the pickup truck bed or a hitched trailer. We miss the ability of our previous Sienna to take 8x4 drywalls laying flat on the deck with second-row seats removed and third-row seats stowed away. I had no problem loading 10 feet lumbers and in a pinch could even do the 12 feet lumber all with the rear gate fully closed. I can't do that with an SUV.

    FYI, the new Toyota Sienna and Chrysler Pacifica are both ~$50K vehicles fully loaded. The base price may start around mid $30K, but you have better choices in mid-size SUVs and the price range is cheaper. Also, our 6 years old Pathfinder Hybrid can get ~34mpg on the highway without heat or AC and no heavy load. But in town and using heat or AC, it gets only ~25mpg, far cry from RAV4 Hybrid, newer Highlander Hybrid, or Sienna Hybrid.
     
    #14 Salamander_King, Jul 21, 2022
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  15. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    My goal would be a higher passenger vehicle that I can swap the Avalon for, so not more than $12,000. A new vehicle would be nice, but no, not possible at this point.

    I do know I do not want a Honday Pilot, at least the years I've driven. The transmission is weird to shift when going down mountain passes.

    Again, I don't like SUV's that much, but if there's one that gets good fuel mileage, has the right price and is big enough (not a 5 seater) then ok, fine, I'd get a stupid SUV or crossover because it would make sense to do so. I just don't have any idea where to start looking as I'm not into SUV's.

    My brother has a Pathfinder and says he'd never buy one again. The older ones like his had a coolant problem that would blow the transmission (a leak between the coolant and the transmission fluid in the radiator) and the newer ones have a CVT that are notorious for dying here in the mountains. Of course that's what he said, I haven't looked into them. Plus RWD stinks in the snow unless paired with automatic tire chains. I'd prefer FWD. AWD is overkill, costs more and gets worse fuel mileage.

    Maybe I should get a Grand Caravan. At least I've been in the back of those and know they have enough room for adults. I like how they shift and drive.
     
    #15 Isaac Zachary, Jul 21, 2022
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  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    We almost got a Mazda5 during Cash-4-Clunkers, but supply was gone when the program abruptly ended. almost before it started.

    We ended up with 2009 VW Routan which is basically equiv to the Pacifica plug-in as far as interior layout. I like to take the 2nd row seats out to get a big cargo space, especially to fit in my 10-ft fishing kayak.

    Sienna Hybrid looks very good re: MPG but the 2nd row seats are permanent fixture. Otherwise I would consider a used one someday. I would consider used Pacifica Hybrid but prices are so inflated I do not see that happening either.

    Actually Mazda5 is a "mini" van. The mini-vans of today might be better called full-sized Vans
     
    #16 wjtracy, Jul 21, 2022
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  17. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    Well I plugged in the following into Autotrader:
    • Minivan/SUV/Crossover
    • With 3rd row seats
    • Under $12,001
    • Less than 150,000 miles
    • 2012 or newer
    • 30mpg or better
    And I mainly got these results
    • Kia Sorento
    • Mitsubishi Outlander
    • Nissan Rogue
    There were also very, very few, or close to my specs,
    • Jeep Renegade
    • Jeep Patriot
    • Chevy Equinox
    • Ford Escape
    • Buick Encore
    • Subaru Crosstrek
    I don't know much about any of them, but maybe one of these are the vehicle I'm looking for. It's sad that none of them are minivans or three row station wagons, but oh well.
     
    #17 Isaac Zachary, Jul 21, 2022
  18. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    You will be disappointed if you go with the 3rd row on an otherwise compact or small mid-size SUV, like Rogue or Outlander. The third row seat is not meant to be used for a full-grown person. and having the third row used means you have absolutely no cargo space.
     
    #18 Salamander_King, Jul 21, 2022
  19. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    So, potentially the same as the MAZDA5 I mentioned earlier, only in SUV form, 2 mpg better on paper, one more seat, and without the manual transmission option? (Did I mention I love to drive a manual? So does the wife.)

    4 years ago, before the Avalon, we had a 1972 VW Beetle that I'd stuff kids or adults in the rear of. I imagine the seating would be kind of like that.
     
    #19 Isaac Zachary, Jul 21, 2022
  20. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I have never seen MAZDA5. So I don't know how it is configured. But for the Rogue and Outlander, the third raw seats I have seen are not usable. I don't think the current model of Rogue comes with the third raw. Both are basically the same size as Rav4 and CRV, I believe which are more in the compact SUV category than real mid-size SUVs like Highlander and Pathfinder.
     
    #20 Salamander_King, Jul 21, 2022
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