Featured Is it ethical to purchase a lithium battery powered EV?

Gas Turbines breaking the 60% efficiency barrier - Power Engineering International but you may note this report is dated 2010.
II'm kinda flat out at work at the moment and can't track down the report I referenced to get the better than 70% efficient figure from, but it was dated 2020/2021 overall for a gas fired generator used by one of the major telco operators here in Australia for their remote operations when the solar wasn't being friendly ....

T1 Terry

 

Adding this from the source fixes the problem, "gas turbines in combined-cycle". In effect a multi-stage heat engine where the gas turbine replaces a natural gas burner. This works for me.

Bob Wilson

 

With modern technologies and the tendency of people to buy EVs that are far overbuilt for their actual usage, it's much more appropriate to say that SOME EVs are less bad than SOME ICEs. And of course the opposite is sometimes true too.

 

Hence why I qualified it with "broadly speaking!" But also this is wrong (in terms of carbon impact). There was not a single ICE that was better than any of the EVs on the market as of 2020.



Source: Carboncounter.com | Cars evaluated against climate targets

 

When I look at the source of that graph, it pretty clearly shows there are a lot of hybrids that have lower carbon per mile than a lot of the BEVs. The only question is whether you put a 61 MPG PHEV mid sized sedan in the EV class or in the ICE class.

According to that chart, the Tesla model 3 Performance has a higher carbon output per mile than the Prius Prime.

 

They are both pretty good:



Bob Wilson

 

Someone buying a performance model likely doesn't have the same priorities as someone buying a Prius-anything. The fact that something called performance, which is usually linked with fuel guzzling, is compared to a Prius in terms of fuel economy and emissions is great.

 

You are missing the point, deliberately, I think.

That Tesla model is designed without concern for being the best possible at lower environmental impact. If it were, it would have a mode that used less carbon per mile than the humble Prius Prime. The Tesla's huge battery is a testament to the idea of overbuilding (large battery) to overcome inherent flaws design flaws, in this case the battery design. It's marketed to people in such a way as to encourage people to buy into the oversized motors and batteries and to encourage driving practices that consume more energy.

But you are right about one thing... A person buying a Tesla SUV or Performance model is not really interested in the environment. A company that builds and markets those models doesn't really care either.

 

AFAIK the most efficient plants are ccgt with multiple natural gas turbines and a stream turbine to recover their otherwise wasted heat. Toshiba/GE has one that is 63% efficient. It is more efficient converting the fuel into rotational energy as this includes the loss converting motion to electricity. That may be where the 70% figure comes from.

The first GE plant that got this efficient used their jet turbines from aircraft. Unfortunately this tech is too expensive and large for land or sea transportation. The most efficient turbines for transportation are 50% efficient.

The most efficient gasoline engine is 50% efficient or a tie. It of course is very expensive as it is a Mercedes in F1. Diesel engines also have reached 50% efficiency. The least expensive light gasoline engines are 42% which are found in the hybrid Camry and Rav4.

PHEV + such and efficient engine can provide very good efficiency.

Tesla model 3/Y was created to be a great sports sedan and high performance crossover. How much carbon does hill or I or everyone else that mainly fuels our vehicles with solar really make. The Prius prime doesn't drive down the amount of carbon very much as it is mainly a substitute for the Prius a very efficient hybrid. Sales are very low world wide. Compare that to the teslas that have replaced bmw Lexus Mercedes and other similar cars. Sure some like mine replaced a Prius but I wasn't going to buy another Prius. Enjoy your vehicle, but don't pretend it has a lot more virtue.

 

I guess we're operating with some differences in definitions. They are labeled as just "ICE" in the carboncounter link, but in the NYT graph that I pasted into the post upthread, they are "traditional gas-powered cars". So if I may clarify for the sake of accuracy, I should have said no traditional gas-powered ICE has a better carbon impact than any "electrified" vehicle (hybrids, PHEVs, BEVs). And the preponderance of the data shows how BEVs are categorically better for reducing carbon emissions than ICEs. This will only be more apparent as electrical grids rely less on coal and natural gas and more on renewables.

 

At the tail pipe, of course, an ICE car produces more CO2 than any BEV. But... When considering CO2 release during production, I guess, keep driving an old gas guzzler can be better for an environment? I don't think so, but some do... apparently.

Classic Cars Are Greener Than Electric Vehicles: Study

 

This is not an apples to apples comparison in the least. This "study" conducted by a UK insurance firm is comparing the construction of one EV (Polestar 2) and comparing its carbon impact to a classic car that is driven 1200 miles PER YEAR. Like yes, if you deign to drive 100 miles a month in your ICE, that is definitely better for the environment. But the average American drives closer to 1200 miles PER MONTH. So this "study" is stacking the deck to promote the classic car market (and thus the insurance market that profits from perpetuating the classic car market) and not an honest comparison of the cradle-to-grave environmental impact of EVs verses ICEs.

This is a more reliable study:

Manufacturing a mid-sized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15 percent more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle. For larger, longer-range EVs that travel more than 250 miles per charge, the manufacturing emissions can be as much as 68 percent higher.

These differences change as soon as the cars are driven. EVs are powered by electricity, which is generally a cleaner energy source than gasoline. Battery electric cars make up for their higher manufacturing emissions within eighteen months of driving—shorter range models can offset the extra emissions within 6 months—and continue to outperform gasoline cars until the end of their lives.​

 

Lots of add on carbon emissions and pollution in general for an ICE powered v hybrid v BEV., then comes the end of life disposal. Things like brake linings and discs replacement frequency, oil and filter changes, transport of fuel to refueling site and servicing sites ..... I guess the list goes on the deeper one wants to dig, but in every instance, the ICE looses the worst followed by the hybrid, the BEV would be the better in all those categories because the materials required per service are so much less and a lot of those materials can be recycled .... battery cells, motor and cabling copper components, electronic circuitry, a lot can be recycled straight into the DIY market, a lot into energy storage and a lot back into the pool of materials for the production of the replacement vehicle.

T1 Terry

 

Since a Prius Prime cannot refuel the majority of its fuel from home on PV Solar, whereas the Tesla can .... who is it that's deliberately missing the point?

 

Was that point (solar charging) made previously?

I suspect that the Tesla can't charge "the majority" at home any more than a Prius Prime can. Here's the reasoning.

The average car driver travels less than 30 miles a day, based on studies by the US government. There are threads on this site that have more information about that. I think it's safe to say that 90% drive 30 miles or less daily.

The average long distance commuter is not charging at home. It's at work during prime charging hours. Yes, it might be charged from solar there, but not as likely once we go to 100% BEV in places like California. It will take a lot of square meters of solar panel to charge every single car in the parking lot if they all commuted 45 miles each way. (think from home in Tracy Ca to ebay in Santa Clara)

So we have 90% of the people who only need to replace the charge needed to drive 30 miles, regardless of the technology.

My Prius can fully recharge it's battery in less than 2.5 hours using a 3 kWh solar array. I can charge it several times a day if necessary.

So the Tesla which is used the same way as 90% of the cars on the road will charge the same way as my Prius does and in the same amount of time.

 

We would fit the profile just described - live in a small town and drive less than 30 miles daily.
We own a PHEV and it will average 30 miles electric range per full charge. We have a level 2 charger and it takes 2.5 hrs to completely charge and the vehicle is always plugged in when not being used. It will easily give us at least 60 miles each day on electric drive only-more if we really pushed it.

Our speed limits around town are 25 mph or 45 mph on the main roads. If you take expressways you are capped at 70 mph.

The smal economical costing PHEV meets all of our needs. If we need to take a long trip it averages 50 mpg and with a 12 gallon tank has a 600 mile range. With this vehicle and how it is used it is a rare event to ever have to fill the tank.

 

Have you installed the extended range battery to your 2008 Prius? What unit did you use? Our Engineer kit delivered us around 50 miles (80km) at around 52 MPH (85km/h) on electric only and we plug into the rooftop solar I installed for the job.
I'm hoping the new LTO cell upgrade will increase the range to around 65 mile (100km) but I doubt the speed will improve, more related to the max rpm of MG1 than battery voltage.

T1 Terry

 

ethical ? well, ya sure, if you want to keep the economies of the world going, and spend a little less for gasoline.

is someone going to complain ?

absolutely, always.

when people are driving 30hp diesels that get 100mpg , grow their own corn diesel, and only drive when absolutely necessary for medical emergencies and nothing else... I'll start carrying about their opinions of how and what I buy/drive.

I'm literally dumping 100ml of oil into the atmosphere for every gallon I burn, and loving every minute of it.

 

Good point!

Many of us have a mix of requirements with different priorities than just 'environment.' Personally, I wanted the lowest operating cost. So in 2019 I traded in an under utilized Prius Prime for a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus that has worked great. The Tesla has 70,541 miles over three years.

Here is another environmental scoffer:

Bob Wilson

 

It's more like 20 pounds of CO2 for every gallon of gasoline, and that's just from the tailpipe.