2023 Toyota bZ4X EV (Reviews start on page 6)

You could use liquid cooling or add a battery loop to the heat pump, which would also address cold weather charging.

 

Toyota is providing hot & cold with 4X. They are quite restrained about when and how much though, since their goal is overall efficiency.

Notice how no one talks about how many kWh of electricity is actually consumed warming the pack specifically for faster charging?

 

Yeah I've seen the same thing on mine. Also worked much better when pre-conditioning the car before I left for work for instance.

That statement is specific to the AWD bZ4X and DC charging. So for the US bound AWD bZ4X (and its twin Subaru Solterra) this is specific for the CATL battery. Apparently the Panasonic battery does not have this limitation.

 

When did they start running R134 lines straight to the battery? I thought they were still doing the cheeseball "heat/cool" the cabin and try to draw air in from there. In summer heat that's pretty much a futile battle because you're fighting against all the solar heat gain ... just wasting electrons for nothing.

 

Toyota is considering putting hydrogen burning engines into cars as costs for hydrogen FCEVs are still high.

"will increase significantly" is far harsher phrasing than the "may increase" used with Prius Prime materials.

No one talks about that energy being used because customers are asking how long it takes to charge.

Is that an actual limitation, or is it because Toyota doesn't trust the, um, chemistry?

Maybe with the Rav4 Prime. Pretty sure it does use refrigerant lines for pack cooling, though the non technical phrasing generally used could also mean the A/C directly chills the air entering the pack.

 

I'm actually surprised that a company as conservative as Toyota is with their reputation for reliability made that gamble. If I were in Toyota's shoes I would have rather waited to release the car than source the batteries from CATL.

 

Quite a number of the reviews for the past few months have shown the cutout... It's a full pack circulation system dedicated for warming & cooling.

 

And they still cripple fast charging despite having a system that presumably could absorb a significant amount of heat? I don't understand. Maybe it's true that they don't trust the CATL batteries, and I don't blame them for that. Not even a little bit.

 

Since all we have seen so far is pre-production models, there's no way to know yet. And with OTA update, waiting until just before deliveries is no big deal. Heck, it would serve to help promote that ability.

 

It would not be unwise to be overly conservative until Toyota can gather more data from real world results.
As they learn more, they could get more aggressive with the charging.

I am not saying this is what they are doing, but it is a reasonable explanation.
Now, if there is no improvement over the first 6 months…

 

65 kWh battery for Bolt EUV maxs out at 55 kW. That isn't even 1C. Makes you wonder how that came about.

That video we saw of the AWD 4X fast-charging had an uncertain start-point. Since the display said 0% but wasn't actually fully depleted and the charge itself took only 61 kWh, we clearly weren't getting true representation. Supposedly, usable capacity is 65.6 kWh. Doing the math, that missing 4.6 kWh would represent 14 more miles of driving (EPA 3.09mi/kwh combined rating). In other words, the entire graph needs to be shifted over by 6% to 7%. That would explain why it took a few minutes longer to reach "80%" than expected. Not having final software updates for charge-rate and SOC-measure, since it was a pre-production model, seems more and more likely as we look into the detail.

 

CATL is the largest supplier of Li-ion batteries for EVs in the world. That doesn't happen by just supplying Chinese brands. Some US Model 3's with their batteries are already in owners' hands.

Who else would Toyota source batteries from? BYD? LG Chem? Toyota took longer to start building supply lines for plug in batteries, and invested less into them than other major EV companies. If not for their existing ties to Panasonic, they wouldn't be able to get those batteries.

 

Their newest endeavor is to find a site in the US to build supply for VW and Ford.

 

That's a cherry-picked perspective.

The final patent for LFP expired just 10 days ago. With that comes easier commitment to newer chemistries. The problem of both premature lock-in and infringement exposure simply made it undesirable to start sooner. After all, that is far from the only piece of the puzzle. In fact, Toyota is better positioned than others with regard to fleet impact from cell shortages. Think about what happens when the balance starts to tip.

 

Toyota once again is near the front of the EV/Hybrid movement

Toyota to build battery plant in North Carolina | Article | Automotive Manufacturing Solutions

Toyota to build $1.3 billion battery plant in North Carolina (nypost.com)

Did you know Toyota is building Fuel Cell Modules at its Kentucky Plant?

Toyota to Assemble Fuel Cell Modules at Kentucky Plant in 2023 - Toyota USA Newsroom

Toyota To Make Fuel Cell Modules For Hydrogen Big Rigs At Kentucky Plant (forbes.com)

Lost in this conversation- Toyota to invest well over $1.3 Billion in the new plant construction and create at least 1,700 new well-paying jobs in America. Wonderful economic boost for US Manufacturing and Job Market.

So not only are they preparing for EV's but also fuel cell technology making massive contributions to the US economy and job market- but - also working to design a new solid-state battery with well funded research.

Toyota Researches Solid-State Batteries As Mid-Term Option To Lithium-Air (greencarreports.com)

Great company doing great things for our country and the people who live here and the world!

This isn't just a post of opinion - every point was illustrated by factual press releases - but for Toyota's part each endeavor backed with money and actual corporate action. Not just talking about building a better future- actually working, funding and building it with and for us.

 

Saying something is
"lost in the conversation"
is one way to look at where Toyota is.
Equally valid interpretation of "lost in the conversation";
Toyota - the sleeping giant - getting left in the dust Electric Car Wise - finds itself in the uncomfortable position of having to scream at their employees and supply chains:
"ALL HANDS ON DECK!!"
Toyota didn't see the industry urgency of building all electric cars until China forced them - if they wanted to continue selling in their country, the largest market in the world. So finally now - finally - it's all @$$holes & elbows .... good on them!

As for Fuel Cell Tech?
90% of the fuel stock comes from non-renewables. So for now it's Pie in the Sky. But it makes for good PR.
Solid state batteries?
Cross your fingers and hope for a breakthrough - a challenge similar to the fuel stocks necessary to run expensive fuel cell tech.
.

 

From all the little tidbits of information I could find, the RAV4 Prime should be kind of scarce as they only allocated 20,000 for the US market in 2021. 2022 will be the first full year the Lexus NX 450h+ will be sold and that’ll cannibalize some of the batteries since they are made on the same line. Couldn’t find the exact number for Europe nor can I find the number they will allocate the bZ4X to Europe. Only 7,000 bZ4X are being allocated to the North American market and Subaru has already filled their 6,500 quota for 2022. I’m assuming most of those will be CATL battery based, I’ll WAG that we’ll have about 12,000 with the CATL battery with the rest being the Panasonic FWD. 3,000 bZ4X are being allocated to Japan and all of them, FWD and AWD, will be the Panasonic battery. Europe will also get only the Panasonic battery based bZ4X, even the AWD. The Lexus RZ 450e is being made on the same line at the end of the year, so that’ll grab probably about 1,000 and they’ll be Panasonic batteries.

If I spot a FWD bZ4X I’ll send you an update. They don’t usually sell a lot of any FWD of any model here if there’s an AWD model available.


iPad ? Pro

 

It also let's you avoid working with companies you'd rather not. Shame those companies have all that expertise and production capacity though.

LFP will lower costs for shorter range BEVs. That is why everybody is investing in it. You can get a Model 3 RWD with such a pack now. Waiting for patents to expire sounds like an excuse for not having the foresight to invest in battery sources for plug ins.

Is Toyota limiting car supply to build up a cell stockpile, or are they investing more into battery production. than the others?

"The plant, which will come online in 2025, will have four production lines, each capable of delivering enough lithium-ion batteries for 200,000 vehicles. Toyota plans to expand the facility to at least six production lines to produce enough battery packs for up to 1.2 million vehicles per year."
The number of vehicles is impressive, but it doesn't tell us the cell production amount. The bZ4X pack is around the capacity of a Model Y, but Toyota also makes hybrids with Li-ion packs that are a mere 1kWh.

Tesla's Gigafactory in Nevada has 13 lines making 35 GWh of cells annually, with another line under construction for 3 to 4 GWh more. The factory they are building in Texas will be bigger.
Tesla Gigafactory In Nevada Celebrates One Million Battery Packs

"Volkswagen is planning to establish six gigafactories in Europe to cover the growing demand for battery cells within the Group. Battery cell production in Salzgitter is set to start in 2025. The gigafactory in Lower Saxony will produce unified battery cells for the Volkswagen Group’s volume segment. In its initial phase, the factory is set to have an annual capacity of 20 gigawatt hours; this is planned to double to 40 gigawatt hours at a later stage."
Volkswagen Group creates European company for its battery business
An earlier announcement was that those 6 factories will each make 40GWh by 2030.

Toyota and hydrogen may become an example of planning too far ahead, and becoming inflexible in those plans.

Plenty has been said elsewhere on the hydrogen economy, so I'll just say this.

Ammonia is vitally important as a fertilizer to the world. We make 176 million tonnes annually, and that requires about 31 million tonnes of hydrogen. Virtually all of that comes from fossil fuels. The world needs green hydrogen to reduce those carbon emissions there, and from other traditional uses of hydrogen. Green hydrogen can also be used for new uses to reduce GHG emissions, like steel production. The EQs will be using such steel.

Toyota's H-FCEV semi has a range of 402 miles. Tesla's will have a range of 300 to 500 miles. Both are far short of the thousands of miles a long haul ICE semi could have. Hydrogen trucks are going to be used in the same roles BEV ones are suited for. Do we divert green hydrogen away from traditional hydrogen uses for trucks, or use green electricity directly for shipping?

Like LFP, Toyota is not the only one doing solid state batteries. Ford is teamed up with Solid Power, and others with QuatumScape. Toyota might be the first to put a solid state into a production car. It won't be in a plug in though. Just hybrids, as they have said their batteries aren't reliable enough for that; the cells can crack in automotive use.

In other words, they are using customers for R&D. That might be expected of other companies, but not Toyota. It is a sign they are feeling pressure from not investing for plug ins earlier.

 

You feeling pressure too? That is rather sloppy. Rolling out a production vehicle for R&D doesn't make sense, nor does it match what Toyota actually said. They stated hybrids work the battery harder. By choosing that platform for rollout first, they would learn how to best refine the tech for battery-only vehicles. Your portrayal of risk taking to catch up doesn't work.

In other words, it is an accelerating means of advancing the technology. That's how you pull out ahead of the crowd.

 

They also said the cells were prone to cracking. The relatively tiny packs of a hybrid allow more space for battery protection. Then there is the reality of low production and high costs solid state batteries face.

Regardless, it isn't like the original Prius using off the shelf NiMH of well known behavior and performance. Previous battery types and chemistries used by EVs, including hybrids, saw extensive use in other fields first. That isn't the case here.