2023 Toyota bZ4X EV (Reviews start on page 6)

owners being sorely disappointed by the Leaf seem to agree - in the short run the leaf is cheap up front - but in the long run you find it actually costs you more due to it being only air cooled instead of liquid.

This Nissan Leaf Repair Shows Why Liquid-Cooling Is What EVs Need
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If LEAF (smaller battery) really provides me with 120 miles of EV range in -10C (14F), then it is 100 % usable for my max 100 miles need for 95% of my current trips driven on the PP. But if I have to get LEAF Plus (larger battery), then economics becomes not favorable. For almost $6K more and at $35K MSRP, I may go with Kia Niro or Hyundai Kona. But I believe both Niro EV and Kona EV are also air-cooled?

EDIT: I just checked, and it seems both Niro EV and Kona EV now use liquid-cooled batteries.

Yes, looks like the smaller battery LEAF has 50kW and Plus has 100kW Quick Charge Port. I think you are right that they are all CHAdeMO. But, again for my use case, it really doesn't matter. I will never use them.

Yeah, but if I can't afford to buy any other BEVs with liquid-cooled batteries, that leaves me with the choice between Hybrid (including PHEV like PP) and ICE. No chance for someone with a $20K budget for a car to put my hands on any BEV (except maybe used first-generation BEVs). Besides, if I decide to get a LEAF, I will not be so worried about battery degradation due to air-cooled thermal management. We never get 100F summer heat here. I will never take the car on the road needing to be fast-charged. And, I don't expect to keep the car longer than 3 years at most.

 

That needs to be clarified. The Leaf and Zoe use passive air cooling. Air may flow over the battery while the car is in motion. When stopped, convection driven by the battery's heat is the only thing moving air and carrying the heat away. High speed charging means the battery will get hot.

It is the lack of active cooling that is the issue. The NV200e van has the exact same EV drain train as the Leaf, including the battery. Passive cooling needs an air exit at the top of the battery case. That wasn't possible in the van's chassis, so Nissan had to add a fan to move the air. A quick search of battery issues is only returning results on 12V draining problems in the ICE model.

 

They may not have an active heating element to the cooling system. I recall seeing a heater being listed as an option. I believe this just means their EVs can't heat the battery up for ideal operation, and not that the don't have freeze protection for the pack.
Coolingzone.com - Details emerge about battery thermal management on new Hyundai Kona EV

The Soul EV and early Ioniq Electric had active air cooling with a fan. By some definitions, it was a liquid system using component heat to drive a heat pump.
Hyundai and Kia improve the thermal management of the EV batteries they use
Which I think the Rav4 Prime might use. Saying a system using refrigerant could mean an A/C is chilling the air going over the pack.

 

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I am not too worried about a BEV not having a liquid cooling system for that need in my climate and the use case is really minimal. But having an active battery heating system would be very beneficial if such an active heating system allows the car to run more efficiently in winter. If Kona does not have an active heating system, then it may be no better than a passive cooling system of LEAF.

 

The statement "I don't think anyone would call a forward trunk a flaw" was invalid before you finished typing. I'd already expressed my opinion that it was a flaw that was declared a feature. When it comes to safety, I don't want a bunch of unpredictable and unsecured things stored under the hood where they may interfere with crumple zones. And of course, the car could have been made more aerodynamic if it wasn't trying to justify and work around that empty space up front.

Then there are the two statements that seem to present conflicting views. It's OK to decrease cabin space by making a frunk where it's not necessary, but putting a tunnel Tunnel hump in the floor for cables, hydraulics, etc is bad???

You will need to do a bit of digging, but I'm pretty sure that the Tesla's design is not based on 100% BEV either. Wasn't the original model based on a Lotus body? Isn't that why the hood is longer and taller than needed? I believe that it was aesthetics from the early designs.

 

Right .... much better to have an engine to come crashing into the cabin - rather than air - or a bunch of flares or a Samsonite rolly piece of luggage

the Lotus body was for the gen one Roadster.
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Google map showed Limestone as just South of Grand Falls. I think Wiki said the same. Regardless, cutting through Canada almost makes sense except for the COVID-hole guards.

Good luck.

Bob Wilson

ps. Sometimes I share longitude and latitude when place names are difficult.

 

I don't know if you actually read what I wrote and looked at the map I posted in my comment. 2023 Toyota bZ4X EV | Page 4 | PriusChat The Grand Fall, Google map shows is in Canada, it is not the same place as Grand Falls, Maine in the USA you posted in your map. If you can see what the map shows below, then you should be able to conclude that the distance from Grand Fall, NB, Canada to the next closest CCS charger in the US toward Boston is well over 200 miles. Going North into Canada will not help my trip to the South. There is another CCS charge station in Woodstock, NB on the Canadian side. If I take a detour to Canad via Woodstock, I guess, I can shorten the distance to the closest CCS charge station in West Gardner on the US side, but that still leaves 216 miles trip without any charger. Not a comfortable distance to travel on any BEV with less than 300 miles of range.

Here is what you asked:
Location of Limestone, Maine
Coordinates: 46°54′25″N 67°51′46″W

 

I read it but you live there and I only have Google Maps and ChargePoint. Sounds like you've got a local-to-Maine, Fast DC resource problem which can't be helped.

Good Luck,
Bob Wilson

 

Well, I already knew there is no way I can make use of a non-Tesla BEV to make this trip. But you wanted to try checking it yourself, so I gave you the location. If you plugged in Limestone, Maine in the Google map, there is only one location it will point to. Yet, somehow you pointed to a starting location that is 145 miles, 3 hours drive south of me. Then suggested traveling North into Canada when I need to travel to the South. Not surprisingly, the information you provided was of no use to me.

 

Without the battery warmer, the Kona's system can scavenge heat from the EV drive train and battery. Presumably, this is enough to avoid damage to the battery from charging when it is too cold in most of the US. The Leaf has a resistive heater in the battery like the PP for freezing temps.

The Kona battery warmer runs for freeze protection, and it seems not much more while charging. There is a Winter Mode for driving.
"The winter mode uses extra energy to warm the battery pack to allow for full regenerative braking and quicker fast DC charging. Colder pack temperatures force the battery management system to restrict the amount of power that can recharge the battery in order to avoid damaging the carbon graphite anode. This is an issue common to most lithium ion batteries. Cold temperatures are not much of an issue for power coming out of the battery except under rare and extreme conditions like down near -40 degrees."
https://electricrevs.com/2018/12/20/exclusive-details-on-hyundais-new-battery-thermal-management-design/
Info there might be out of date or missing bits as it was from pre-release. Hyundai's owner's manual is harder to find specific info than Toyota's.

The Kona Limited has the battery warmer, and it is part of a package for the base. You'd probably be better off sourcing a used Canadian model, as those have a heat pump.

Then you don't understand the basic engineering of any car's front end, let alone a frunk.

With a forward trunk, users aren't just throwing items into the engine bay. It is an enclosed bin, protected from the elements, that will keep items further away from the crumple zones, which are already divided from the space of the engine bay. Crash engineering already drops the engine down under the car. Getting a smaller motor and separate frunk bin to do the same is easier.

The danger from unsecured items in a crash comes from ones that get into the cabin. Most of those threats are already inside the cabin, and there is more in the case when the rear cargo space isn't separated from the cabin, as in your Prius Prime.

Your Prime manages a 0.25. The 1989 Calibra is at 0.26.

Don’t drag me down: 10 cars that mastered aerodynamics | Hagerty UK

The ID.3, which got rid of that problematic frunk, is 0.276. Just 0.006 better its segment mate, the Golf. The Model 3 has one with 0.23. The Model S, Lucid Air, and EQS are all in the 0.20 to 0.21 range. Only the Mercedes doesn't have a frunk, but it does have what you would label a long hood to go with its cab forward design. The EV1 was at 0.19, and it had neither frunk or cab forward.

An EV drive train needs less space than an engine. In most cases, designers simply can't get rid of the space gained, because there are other components. They did it with the bZ sedan, and ended up with raised front fenders because the wheels stilled needed to be there. The rest, whether a front trunk or more front passenger space, have traditional profiles.

The hood length helps with aero design. Without it, you need a huge windshield, with its attending weight and fragility, or get something like the ID.Buzz with its drag coefficient approaching 0.30. Or end up with something like an high end sports car, which most people can't climb out of.

Space was not decreased for a frunk. Space was freed up by getting rid of an engine for a motor. Previous BEVs, that were basically conversions of an ICE model didn't put that space to use. There was large voids under the hood. Backyard mechanics would rejoice if they were to actually able to work on a motor like an engine.

Frunks put wasted space to use. Adding that space to the cabin requires a lot more engineering, as the firewall needs to be moved, and that has many attendant changes. One of those is the distance crumble zones have less distance to reduce crash forces.

Other BEVs manage to run all those without the hump. Even ICE cars didn't use that tunnel for such. Most of that runs along, and in, the frame's siderails. It's called a transmission hump, because that was why it was there. There is no reason a ground up designed BEV platform would have one.

The original Roadster was a Lotus conversion, though it may have had a lengthened wheelbase. Tesla was just starting, and in no way had the resources for a clean sheet car design. Aesthetics did play a part in later designs, but the hood was not a hinderance in getting aerodynamics that they have. They also don't have a transmission going down the the middle of the car, so no transmission hump.

 

Apparently there is a Grand Falls BE which led to my mistake. So I used the near by customs office and it became clear. A Tesla like mine is your only option. Even the proposed CCS-1 stations look dodgy.

By the time your Tesla reservation is ready, the CCS-1 situation may change.

Bob Wilson

 

I have already pointed out the reason for your confusion... back in comment #68.

Yeah, Tesla is the only way to travel to the far NorthEast corner of the United State for now. But I suspect it requires a great effort in planning and some fortitude to make a trip like that. I have spotted a few of them with out-of-state license plates this summer. Amazing, that they ventured this far. The only Supercharger Station that is available in the last 200 miles is at Medway, ME which is really located in the middle of nowhere. If all of the stalls are inoperable, then I'm sure they would need emergency help. Not sure, if there is any company that can bring portable chargers to the site around there? If not, it would be a long tow to the next nearest Super Charger station 100+ miles away.

Thanks but no thanks. As much as I want to help save the earth, I don't have disposable money to spend on a $45K (or is it now $55K?) car to replace my perfectly capable and far more cost-effective Prius Prime. Besides, there is not a single Tesla service center in my state, I would not buy a car that cannot be serviced locally.

As I have repeatedly stated, if I buy a BEV, it will be strictly for within 100 miles of commuter rides. So, I am not going to hold my breath to wait for the new charge station construction. It really doesn't matter to me, as long as a BEV can make 100 miles trip in the middle of winter.

 

Stop right there. An EV drive train means the whole thing. The batteries. The inverters. The wiring. The charging, The battery cooling and heating. The motors, the drive shafts, the transmissions and, where applicable, the differentials. There is a reason that virtually every BEV is either small with short range or it is large with a longer range.

They don't "gain space". They end up with big flat heavy battery packs that they want to keep low (as in under the passenger compartment) for a better CG, and that means the car is longer, wider or both.

But they don't gain space. Besides, didn't you say that the Tesla was built from the bottom up to be 100% BEV? You don't gain space when you don't have constraints from previous engineering.

 

Superchargers seem to have far better reliability than the other networks, and taking out all six stalls would most likely mean power is out in the aera. Then you don't need portable chargers, just portable generators. I'm sure the trailered type work uses here for planned outages would be available; Telsa might already have contracts in place for emergencies with the local companies. They have deployed such in the past.

You were, but others were not. Quoting your post directly seemed a better segue for mine.

 

Yeah, I was just overstating the hypothetical situation. From what I read about people using the public chargers, most disabled (or vandalized?) chargers are non-Tesla. BTW, I believe most Tesla supercharger stations are unmanned, but how responsive are they to come to fix any problem with the charge station equipment?

But even if Tesla is very prompt in fixing any charger issues on their ends, I would like to have a little more redundancies for available chargers in a 200+ miles stretch of barren North East county road. With one major accident on the I-95 corridor en route, I would be hard-pressed to reach the nearest and only supercharger station. This is far more true in wintertime when road is mostly driven by large logger trucks and most amenities along the highway are closed for the season.

 

I agree and noticed even J1772/NEMA 14-50 charge spots are very thin to not even there. My Model 3 gets 28-31 range miles per hour on the 208-240 VAC chargers. That stretch is truly an EV charging desert.

Bob Wilson

 

And getting rid of the engine also means getting of the emission controls and exhaust system running down the length of the car that needs boundary space to deal with its high heat. Owner's manuals to such cars have warnings about parking over dry grass because of it. The EV transmission is reduced in size, as is the radiator. Plus the fuel tank is gone.

The public has a preconceived notion of what a car is; what it looks like, and how it works. Stray too far from their car ideal, and there is a very real risk of product failure. Note that Toyota did not give other models Prius like controls when making them a hybrid. There are cost concerns, but keeping things familiar reduces to odds of scaring away a buyer.

We are already asking the public to switch to an all new fuel source and refueling behavior. Make the car's appearance weird, and they will balk. So BEVs are currently limited to the public's concept of a car shape.

The structural needs of the chassis, and heat shedding one of the exhaust, means there is a good amount of unused space under the car. A BEV battery there makes better use of that space before factoring in structural packs. The weight there also improves stability and safety during emergency maneuvers. Putting the weight higher up has the opposite effect. Many BEVs extend the wheelbase to allow bigger packs, but the overall length generally isn't increased. The bZ4X wheelbase is around a half foot longer than the Rav4's, but overall length increased by 3 inches, and it is just 5mm wider. Longer wheelbases mean smoother rides.

The front end still needs to house the front wheels and steering. Then the firewall can only be moved forward so far for a cab forward design. We could take it more forward, but the general public will likely find the snub nosed hood odd. Front end aerodynamics might also get tricky, if you want better than a minivan.