2023 Toyota bZ4X EV (Reviews start on page 6)

No Glove Box. But with a optional knee and foot warmer....who needs gloves? What about a heated steering wheel?
I love the rear passenger room. I watched this 6'-1" guy have 3" of leg room. Better than Comfort + on Delta. cup holders are fine but only with 4 people. A 5th person would prevent the fold down middle rear seat cup holder from being used. I have found my child needs 3 cupholders for water,snack,chapstick and hairbands/tissues. I do enjoy the fabric choice and the layout. Level 1 charging cable. I hope it is at least 25' long or there is an option to buy a 50' one. Looks like 12G wire so nice and robust. Is the DC Fast charging option available for home install? I am only familiar with Level 2 charging for at home.

 

A DC charger is a literal charger, not just a fancy cable to power the charger on your car. The equipment might cost as much as the car.

 

My expectation is fast DC chargers are about 5x-10x the cost of the EVs:

• high efficiency power electronics - not cheap
• load sharing and matching - a single or pair of 3-phase power lines in
• P-factor - not distorting the load to reduce wasteful grid noise
• possible battery buffer(s)

Bob Wilson

 

Lowest cost estimate I saw for one years ago was $60k. That could have been just the equipment, or also included installation. The answer to the question is simply that DC chargers aren't something for residential installation.

 

I asked Google and got:

How much does a supercharger cost to install at home?
The cost for the hardware plus installation typically runs in the $2,000-3,000 range. The installation process can be completed in a day's work, and usually does not require adding service from the electric utility as most homes' electrical supply is more than adequate to power a Level 2 charger.

Can I Install a Tesla Supercharger at Home? - Effortless Electrichttps://http://www.effortlesselectric.com › can-i-install-a-tesla-su...

Search for: How much does a supercharger cost to install at home?

How much does a supercharger for EV cost?
To install a supercharger costs anywhere from $100,000 to $680,000. Thus, you might not be considering buying one for yourself. However, they are extremely affordable to use from the charging stations. Most Superchargers are available at selected Tesla charging stations.Nov 1, 2021​

The first result is not what I would expect. The second result agrees with my expectation.

Bob Wilson

 

• -1 - pre squashed nose
• +1 - fold down flat floor
• -1 - two modes, flat floor
• -2 - no frunk
• -1 - too many knobs and displays
• -2 - a 'hump' in the rear seat floor
• -1 - trim based pricing for nonsense options

Bob Wilson

 

Just curious. If the DC fast charger is a literal charger outside of the car, then what part of the different models of BEV set the max charge capable? Is it all software controlled?

 

The first result is absolutely incorrect. It fits if you replace “supercharger” with level 2 EVSE. Although the price seems steep.

As I recall, part of the DC standards is a communication handshake between the charger and car.
In short, it is all controlled with software.

Basically, the DC fast charger says “Hello! I am here and can deliver up to X Volts at Y Amps.”
The car responds with something like: “Great, I’ll take half that please”.

 

There might be a hard limit set by the pack voltage. Then battery pack in the longer range Ioniq Electric(the car) has a lower voltage than original pack, and charges at a lower kW rate on DC. You'll have to ask an EE.

Was that from a blurb Google put up on the results page? It isn't at the link.

A couple clicks in yields this, "Commonly referred to as “fast-chargers” or “superchargers” Level 3 systems utilize direct current (DC) to charge plug-ins incredibly quickly, but they come with some drawbacks. The charger units themselves are prohibitively expensive, difficult to install, and daily use of Level 3 chargers can be detrimental to long term EV battery life.

Residential homes generally do not have the required electrical service to power Level 3 chargers, and many county codes will not permit the high voltage service in residences. For these reasons Level 3 chargers are generally only used for highway side charging applications."
It also states DC chargers are $20k+ per charger.

Can I Install a Tesla Supercharger at Home? - Effortless Electric has the $2000 to $3000 quote, but it is in relation to Level 2 installs. That is high. Likely applies to their market(Virginia, Maryland, Delaware), and could include their nifty cable management system.

 

Thanks for the explanations. I have another general question about the DC fast charger, if you don't mind. When a particular BEV touts the fast charging capability, like Ioniq 5 saying "charging from 10 to 80% in 18 min", it assumes that the MAX rate is available at the station, doesn't it? So if the limiting factor is not on the car side, but rather on the DC fast-charge station side, say only 65kW chargers for CCS or CHAdeMO, would it make any difference in the speed of charging between, say, Ioniq 5 and Leaf for the same amount of kWh charged?

 

Depends. For instance - turning on how cold the pack is, the charge may start/run quite slow. That warm up may add over 20 minutes up front. One Tesla owner made a video showing how (for example) if you have maybe 20 miles left before empty - it would be quicker to charge by simply getting out on the road and gunning it and then (regenerative) breaking hard & repeat several times to warm the traction pack up - rather than let a charger do it.
.

 

Thanks. Yes, I can see some situational variations exists even for the same car. But my main question is when comparing two different BEVs one has a much higher upper limit of charging capability kW (or is it volt?) and another has a lower limit. If the limitation is not on the car, but on the charger, under identical conditions (battery pack temp, etc) would it make any difference in the speed of charging?

The reason I ask is that yeah "charging from 10 to 80% in 18 min" is fantastic, but is it realistic? From my reading of the Ioniq 5 ad site, the fastest rate is achieved by using the 800v system with a 350kW DC charger. If the charger is a limiting factor and is only at 50kW DC station, Ioniq 5 still takes 56min 30sec for the same 10 to 80%. How long does a Leaf take to charge 10-80% on CHAdeMO at 50kW station? I understand 80% on the Leaf battery pack is a much smaller amount than 80% on Ioniq 5, but if the same kWh was charged in those two cars at a 50kW DC fast station, would Ioniq 5 still charge faster than a Leaf? Looking at the PlugShare map, there is only one 350kW DC station run by Electrify America in my state.

IONIQ 5 | all-electric CUV | Features | Hyundai Motor Europe

 

Don't overlook the reality that DC charging is not linear. Far too many people assume is a constant rate. It most definitely is not. Speed varies upon both SOC and chemistry. So even if the pack is optimally warmed prior to start, your results will still vary.

Typically, charging starts extremely fast, maintains that for a bit, then drops at a fairly steady & obvious rate. Once SOC hits 80% though, rate plummets... which is why most quoted times stop at that point. For formerly favored chemistries, like NCA and NMC, you simply avoid ever charging past that point anyway (since it is a longevity tradeoff)... except on long trips where you really need to push range. With LFP chemistry, charging all the way to 100% is harmless & routine. However, rate will still experience some type of drop beyond 80%. In other words, there are many speed influences and we have only addressed them in a rudimentary manner. The summary of "it depends" is fitting.

Also, keep in mind that the general recommendation for long-distance travel is to not even charge to 80%. You are better off DC fast-charging more often with a battery already warm from driving. That equates to stopping to recharge at 10-20% and ending the session around 60%. That tends to be the sweet-spot for speed.

 

LOL... That scheme would make a long road trip on a BEV from my home totally unpractical, even if the proposed charge station completes its construction in near future. Currently, the closest fast DC charge station is ~250miles away. The proposed station will shorten that distance to ~180 miles. Suppose a BEV with a 300 miles EV range is charged at 10-60%, that would be only 50% of the range or 150 miles. I can't even get to the first charge station from my home.

Stopping to charge every 150 miles is just not plausible for me. I often drive over 300 miles non-stop to make a single-day round trip of over 600 miles. If I have to stop every 150 miles for 30 min charging, I will not likely be able to complete the trip in a single day.

 

You can laugh all you want. Careful though, it's easy to find oneself laughing alone. For those who have been watching markets ahead of us advance with CCS, that is indeed the approach. For Tesla owners, they have been doing that for awhile already.

 

that smaller charge % window at 800V / 350kW's would be closer to a 10 minute stop. We would usually stretch EV drives out to a 200-mile run. That's relatively a comfortable drive distance for a stretch - bathroom & snack type breaks & get back to the drive in ~15 minutes.
.

 

I am sorry, I don't mean to laugh at you or anyone else. I am, indeed, laughing at my own predicament. I am seriously considering purchasing a BEV this year, but with currently available battery technologies and charging infrastructure, it is just not possible for me to use the most available BEVs in today's market for the long trips I often do with my PP. When I did the calculation, those long trips account for less than 5% of the total trips I made on the PP for the last 4+ years of ownership, but the distance traveled on those long trips comes up to be ~30% of the total mileage I put on my PPs. If I can't use the BEV that will replace my PP for that 5% of long trips, then I have to take our SUV for those trips. Turns out, that will increase the annual consumption of gasoline from the current situation by ~1%, making switching to a BEV, not an ECO-friendly proposition.

OK, 10 min/charge is much better, but that's only if 800V / 350kW charger exists every 150miles along the trip route I often travel. The very first and only 800V / 350kW charger in my state exists over 300 miles from my home.

 

That sounds sad. Seeking out local coffeeshops & restaurants has served us well. We rarely go longer than 2 hours at a time. There is always good reason to enjoy the journey, even if just at a rest stop.

 

Yes I have discovered that as I get older I dont care to drive long stretches. 275 miles is fine. I have heard that Plug Share is a good App for finding. EV Chargers