Featured Pratt: solid state battery 2-3 years away

NIO's semi-solid state batteries are supposed to be coming out soon. Should get more details this month.

 

Lol

 

Definitely not happening in 2–3 years from now. The technology has serious obstacles. Perhaps circa 2030.

 

NIO doesn't even make batteries. Again, not happening with them any time soon. Desperate hype promoted by the CEO to draw attention.

 

I keep getting the same feeling as with nuclear fusion. Fusion has been 30 years away from large scale use for over 30 years. It keeps being "within the next 30 years".

 

Hummmm, require hydrogen to be produced only from fusion power. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

 

Then what battery chemistry did they have in the car for the CLTC testing?
NIO ET5 Is A Tesla Model 3 Rival With 620 Miles Of Range
NIO ET5 - up to 620 miles of range | PriusChat

Solid state batteries are being used in a few things, like medical devices. They exist, and you could get your hands on phone sized cells. For EVs, they need to be made in larger formats that are also durable. That's why Toyota is putting them in hybrids(plugless) first. The smaller packs lets them work on the durability issue while selling some product. It also means keeping the cost in check with the smaller packs. One of the things we don't know about the NIO pack is price.

NIO is doing well enough in China that they have are selling in Norway, and will have battery swap stations there too. I don't think they need 'desperate' hype.

 

We knew from toyota's previous announcement that their solid state was not ready for BEVs (too expensive, not reliable enough). A hybrid is a better test bed where a 1KWh solid state will cost much less than much bigger bev pack, and if the pack has trouble the engine will still work until toyota can replace the battery. They can definitely get some in hybrids in the next 3 years, then we will have real data.

I'm glad that Toyota with that previous group of announcements decided it won't wait for it to perfect solid state and is building more conventional battery plants.

There was some strangeness when he said they are waiting for megawatt chargers. These are new but tesla appeared to built their first one in October, and a semi was seen charging on it on November. Daimler Trucks and Volvo have announce plans to build a number of sites. These are expensive beasts though and I would not expect a nationwide roll out for cars, they are more likely as chosen points for bus and truck charging. The fastest standard charger is a CCS ABB 360 KW although they make a 600 KW one for busses and possibly formula E in 2023. Given the formula E's 51 kwh, if they get it to take the full load for 80%@600KW, it should be able to charge in less than 5 minutes, the likely rules are going to be a 30 second stop to add 4 kwh. If a toyota has the efficiency of a tesla model 3 long range that would be good for 172 miles with a less than 5 minute charge, 276 miles at an 8 minute charge if you had a capacity 345 miles and charged 80% . You don't need megachargers, and its unlikely drivers will pay. Swap stations are far more likely if 5 minutes is too long. Formula E's Lion batteries are very expensive as are toyota's solid state. I hope they can bring the price down in the next 5 to 10 years, or someone else does. We should avoid ideas though that we need to charge in 5 minutes, there are phevs and swap strategies for those type of uses.

 

That car uses a regular lithium-ion battery. NIO won't have a solid-state battery until late 2020s. Their battery partner who is doing research on a solid-state battery is pretty clueless. Solid-state batteries for EVs are a lot more demanding than for small devices. There is no commercial one so far, and the development has proved to be incredibly difficult.

 

LOL No, there is no solid-state battery under development that lasts for more than a few dozen charging cycles under 12C rate (60/12 = 5 minutes). The best solid-state batteries under development are perhaps capable of doing 4C charging (60/4 = 15 minutes) every few cycles or so but not at every cycle, and they are at least three years away from commercialization, assuming that they can ever be successfully mass-produced. A battery needs to last for at least 800 cycles to satisfy basic car warranties. Fast charging is detrimental on cycle life, and that's why some solid-state-battery hopefuls are out there, but the research and development has been incredibly difficult.

 

The 600 mile (150 kwh) Nio is promised for this year, and the semi solid battery supplier is Welion. CATL declined to build it initially but now is proposing a different semi solid battery. I expect that we will not know costs or reliability for awhile. We should know much more by the end of the year.
NIO&#039;s 150-kWh Solid-State Battery Pack Will Actually Be a Semi-SSB Pack - autoevolution
Huwai has also invested in the company giving it the potential to be sold in high volume cell phones. The company was founded in 2016 and does not appear clueless, but this is not the all solid state that toyota is promising. Anode appears similar to other semi solid batteries like Solid Power, but electrolyte is likely quite different.

I was giving statistics for formula E. These are lion batteries but very expensive ones for racing. Porsche has already demonstrated 450 KW charging. Your point that solid state has not shown as fast charging as lion just confirms my point, that it is unlikely to require megachargers and most fast charging will be at a much lower rate.

 

Formula E, I see, yes, they don't need the battery to last for more than a dozen cycles or so for those applications.

Solid Lion's (NIO's solid-state battery partner) "solid-state" batteries are pure hype: (1) They are not solid-state batteries. (2) Their specific energy at 250 W/kg is equal to or worse than standard lithium-ion batteries. (3) Their C/2 (2-hour) charge rate for 800-cycle life is equal to or worse than standard lithium-ion batteries. So, yes, the NIO/Solid Lion solid-state battery is a pure hype, but then that's what companies like those do.

13S SOLID-state lithium-ion pack 30000mAh_北京卫蓝新能源科技有限公司

 

800 cycles? How it is calculated. Surely it can't be I plug in at home at night and 800 days later I have significant range degradation. Must be 800 super charge fast charge to 100% cycles or something similar.

 

Where would a 150kW battery pack, that is swappable, in a Model 3 sized sedan?

I'm pretty sure any talk of cycles for a battery refers to 100% discharge.
Aren't current Li-ion in cars only a 1000 cycles or so?

 

There has been some news lately about technology companies operating on the
"Fake it until you make it" business model.
This likely is just another example of that.

 

The current standard is less than 80% degradation in 800 cycles at C/2 (2-hour) charging with full depth of discharge.

 

Hyping is free for CEOs. He is claiming 360 Wh/kg, whereas in reality Solid-State Lion specs it as 250 Wh/kg on their website, not better than other lithium-ion batteries.

 

They are race cars. The packs will last much longer than they need, which is probably time trials, practice, and the race. They can replace them at the next race ;-) It is likely for 2023 the batteries will be able to handle the max allowed by the rules or 700 KW on a 51 KWh pack. They are lithium ion, but costly. Mercedes is trying to bring the cost down in the AMG ONE from the Formula one battery types that charge at an even higher C rate, but it is quite expensive.

The 150 kwh pack is semi solid and a different chemistry than the one you showed. They claim 360 wh/kg similar to solid powers 350 wh/kg - no spec for pack weight but panasonic in tesla nca is 260 wh/kg in the new 2021 design. There are no claims of very rapid charging like toyota's. The main benefit is more energy can fit in a same size swappable pack. Will they deliver as promised by the end of the year? I doubt it, but I don't think it is far off. The investment from a large cell phone manufacturer makes it likely that they will be able to test these things soon. Since the packs are swabable if they fail after a year its just money that nio needs to eat to replace. They likely will be mainly swapped in for long trips then the original pack swapped back.

 

If that's the case, it is not being made by Beijing Weilan New Energy that I linked, whose specific energies for their solid-state batteries are below 260 Wh/kg. Take it with a grain of salt if someone claims that they will have a 360 Wh/kg li-ion battery. You normally need lithium-metal chemistry to achieve that level of specific energy.