Featured 2023 Prius to launch plug-in hydrogen electric vehicle. Corolla to offer hydrogen combustion engine

In our project the cost of the chargers registers barely a blip on the overall cost. The costs of paying the utility for all their work, trenching for running power from the transformer to the chargers, and all the necessary permits, etc. The 10 chargers at this lot cost about $30,000. The whole project's price tag is about $780,000. The fast charger lot is expected to cost around $2 million not including the chargers.

 

I believe that Forbes got their info from bestcarweb.jp but got it wrong. The hydrogen powered Prius is expected in 2025, not 2023.

Here is the latest from that site, including poor translation: "When it appears in December 2022, it will be a hybrid system of 1.8L engine + motor similar to the current model, and there will also be a PHEV version, but this alone is not "new".

　To meet that requirement, the Prius equipped with a hydrogen combustion engine will be born. It will take at least three years to put it into practical use, so it is planned to add it in line with this fifth-generation."

　"As you can see, the new generation Prius has a completely new design. The hydrogen combustion engine scheduled to appear around 2025 seems to be the favorite, but hybrid cars are also expected."

Here is a link to the article, dated Sept 21 (you have to use Google Translate): 「大物」たちの新型全情報! 次期プリウス、次期クラウン、次期スカイライン…最新開発情報 - 自動車情報誌「ベストカー」

 

To some extent these decisions are about trying different options whether they are more expensive or not ... but if you are going to be pragmatic you focus on the $/tonne of CO2 averted and that may not be the cleanest solution ie PHEV.

 

That makes sense as they are only in test phase with racing the the hydrogen Corolla and it would take a few years to get that to market.

 

I wonder why Toyota is developing their own hydrogen ICE, and not working with Mazda? The Wankel engine's design seems better suited to hydrogen's combustion characteristics than a piston engine. Then Mazda has being working on a hydrogen Wankel longer.

I guess Toyota just wants to save money by using existing engine production lines.

 

I suspect Toyota is internally in full-on scramble mode. They completely flubbed the BEV revolution and rested on their butts with the Prius. Unfortunately this blunder is repeated time and time again, everywhere from sports to business. Someone pulls a good distance ahead of the competition and then just massively cuts back on their effort. They think they have enough of a lead that they don't have to work hard anymore and then suddenly they find themselves losing the game.

I just don't understand how people refuse to learn this lesson. It's so obvious and so ubiquitous.

 

Mazda is reportedly developing a hydrogen-burning rotary engine

Toyota has been working on fuel cells for much longer than mazda on its hydrogen rotary. My guess is we will see solid state batteries in a production car before with see a mazda rotary running on 10,000 psi hydrogen in a production car.

Here is a retrospective on the previous wankel hydrogen/gasoline car.
Mazda RX-8 Hydrogen Re and Premacy Hybrid RE - Motor Trend

They already have a working prototype, it seems its much easier to use this in a very low volume experimental car than waiting for mazda to get theirs working well. A piston engine with electronic supercharging or turbo charging can run both gasoline and hydrogen efficiently, a rotary, it is doubtful.

 

I thought Mazda was working on a hydrogen range extender for longer. Guess those were just rumors.

 

The Japanese called it ‘the victory disease.’

Bob Wilson

 

Wankel is not efficient and not reliable. A reciprocating ICE like the Toyota Atkinson has proven record on both virtues.
If the rotary is to provide short extensions, probably the compactness and weight comes forward. But for long service, is a lesser choice.

 

Wankels become better engines when burning hydrogen. A video here goes over the advantages here, Why the Rotary Engine Is Perfect for Hydrogen Fuel. A big advantage the Wankel has over the piston engine with hydrogen is in avoiding pre-ignition. It takes a lot less energy to ignite hydrogen than gasoline. This means hot spots that occur within a cylinder that aren't an issue when running on gasoline become so with hydrogen.

The intake side of the Wankel 'cylinder' doesn't have hot spots. The fuel mix doesn't see a hot area until it enters the combustion side. So no pre-ignition. Of course, this means the reliability issues caused by a hot and cold side to the engine can still arise Then Toyota's hydrogen Corolla didn't finish the race. The other hydrogen ICE car that was available was a BMW with a V12. It used liquid hydrogen, which surely had a cooling effect on the cylinders.

NOx is going to be an issue with any hydrogen engine, and I don't think the 3-way catalytic converter is going to solve it like the video mentions. These require the presence of CO and HC emissions with the NOx to reduce all of them. If the ratio of the three get out of balance, the cat stops doing its job. Lean burn and EGR will be used to control NOx formation, but something like SCR might still be needed to meet regulations.

As a range extender, the size and weight of a gasoline rotary can trump its drawbacks. Which can be mitigated in a series hybrid with limited operation loads and speeds. If the engine sees use once week or less, its efficiency doesn't need to be the best because of the gas it isn't burning the majority of the time. The Wankel also isn't the only rotary out there.

 

Yes hydrogen rotary does have advantages and dual fuel is great but petrol mode is possibly not clean enough. As you say this makes sense for a series PHEV, but as hybrid it would probably be too inefficient, although if used green hydrogen that would not be a major issue.

For Toyota though, I think their capability lies in lean burn, long strike, cooled EGR, turbo Atkinson and parallel hybrid and so I can't see them changing to rotary. The next test of Toyota's capability will be the 2023 Prius ... to see what efficiency gains they can make on the 40% BTE 1.8 litre in Gen 4 and more broadly in terms of its CO2 g/mi (g/km) rating.

 

I don't really know the efficiency of a hydrogen Wankel, but we do know its gasoline versions are less efficient than traditional 4 stroke engines. This is especially true compared to toyota's 41% efficient dynamic force atkinson engines. Toyota managed to get the engine in the GR yaris to work as a hydrogen engine in a racing corola in only 3 months. The biggest modification was different direct injectors for the hydrogen. My guess is if they actually do this in a prius prime, they will start with that engine or maybe the 1.5 liter in the yaris hybrid. The biggest problem is packaging the hydrogen tanks.

I would expect that using an engine is about immediate power and dual fuel use. mazda in the Rx-8 hydrogen got 60 miles from 2.5 kg of hydrogen and it had a lot less power on hydrogen than gasoline. I'm sure they have improved it in the last 15 years, but is it as good as a direct injection 4 stroke. I would expect a prius to get around 55 mi/kg and a 3 kg tank along with a 6 gallon gas tank might satisfy Japanese consumers and improve the odds of someone in California leasing one versus the mirai. Still I expect it to be low volume. How do you get a consumer to use hydrogen over less expensive gasoline, but making it free like they are doing now.

I really have no idea if Toyota will actually build a hydrogen prius. I do know they have enough experience to build an efficient dual use hydrogen, methanol, gasoline engine.

 

For the EV series hybrid range extender, Mazda wasn't looking at a dual fuel rotary. If a market had the infrastructure to support it, the car would use hydrogen, with gasoline being the fuel everywhere else.

Would CARB even give a dual fuel hydrogen/gasoline car ZEV credits? They required changes to the i3 REx to prevent the driver form using gasoline when it would be best to do so. A dual fuel hydrogen car might have its gasoline range limited to that of the hydrogen range, like the i3 REx had with regards to gas to EV range.

According to the Forbes article, if a hydrogen Prius happens, it will be a PHEV. Supposedly, the targeted EV range for the next Prius Prime is 40 miles. So a hydrogen model wouldn't need a real long range on the gas. Packaging the tanks with the battery could be tricky, like with Mazda's EV. With it's arrival being later, maybe Toyota is waiting on solid state batteries for this hydrogen Prius.

 

I have no idea. Mazda RX-8 was japan and Europe only. The hydrogen lobby is strong in California. It is possible they make an exception just to get more on the road, as they did versus battery swap and income limits. My bet would be we see 0 of these in california. I don't expect many in Japan but they have a lot of hydrogen stations with low utilization.

It was in forbes but I took it more as a rumor piece than something Toyota was committed to doing. It was not part of their normal news coverage. Still its pretty cheap to just add new injectors in an engine and add some hydrogen cylinders. 2025 we may see some really low volume in this and the solid state battery car.

 

mostly what's changed is 2022 is much closer than it was in 2019. the closer 2022 gets, the less & less we'll likely hear about a hydrogen hybrid. The manufacturers could have done this back when electronic controller chips & traction pack manufacturers had more inventory not to mention manufacturers could have built out the multi trillion dollar hydrogen delivery infrastructure & maintenance capability. But what we do see, due to the lack of the above is insincerity glued onto a dog & pony show - just as hydrogen transportation has been since the 1970's. closer .... always closer ... every 10 years ... but never there. (imo)
Commitment looks like what Ford, for example is is doing ... investing billions in battery manufacturing.
Ford to Lead America’s Shift to Electric Vehicles with New Mega Campus in Tennessee and Twin Battery Plants in Kentucky; $11.4B Investment to Create 11,000 Jobs and Power New Lineup of Advanced EVs | Ford Media Center
Those traction packs will not be going into hydrogen mo-biles. (imo)
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Hydrogen ICE cars always had the same benefits as PHEV under California's ZEV program. With the manufacturers being willing to pay for fuel for FCEVs, I thought it odd that they didn't release some hydrogen ICE cars here. Now I'm thinking there is an emission issue with them that isn't easy to solve.

They make NOx without the other co-pollutants that a gasoline catalytic converter needs to work. Hydrogen fuel can run very lean, which lowers the cylinder temperature that in turn reduces NOx production. Less fuel burned also means less power though. I think this is what Mazda did in the dual fuel RX-8. They leaned out the hydrogen mix to keep NOx low enough for regulations, but it resulted in the engine producing about half the power as when running on gasoline.

 

Mazda only made 30 hydrogen cars. BMW only made 100. The companies spent (i.e. wasted) very little money compared to GM, Honda, Toyota, and Mercedes. They were going along with the governments not pushing hydrogen. Here is the problem for the hydrogen lobby for this type of car a mix of green methanol is a lot cheaper per gge in most of the world than green hydrogen when distribution and fueling stations are taken into account. A phev or even a normal ice car is much easier to convert to methanol or other green liquid fuel. Like the governators hydrogen hummer, this hydrogen ice is likely being built to show that more cars can be fueled from the governments massive investment in hydrogen infrastructure. Neither california or Japan is getting nearly as many fuel cell vehicles on the road and most japanese hydrogen stations sit idle for most of the day.

Look at toyota - their hydrogen powered corrola gets its fuel from australian coal. The co2 is sequestered but it is not renewable, and its likely when building the equipment for transport, production, distribution, and fueling it is far from ghg free. Producing green methanol is likely only a little more expensive at the source, but transportation (oil tankers are easy to modify, and methanol tankers roam the sea), and infrastructure for fueling is much much cheaper.