1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

SARS-CoV-2 Coronavirus (COVID-19)

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,667
    15,664
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    It is called the "novel sars-cov-2" which means we are learning about how it works. Those of us used to debugging problems understand there are 'dead ends' that have to be investigated and rejected.

    Bob Wilson
     
    jerrymildred likes this.
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,166
    50,060
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    well, i wouldn't get it from sharyl, that's for sure! :rolleyes:

    her whole section about the provincetown cluster was completely misleading.

    best to stay away from conspiracy websites,

    but if you have a link to the cdc, i'm all clicks ;)
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,166
    50,060
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    unfortunately, they aren't done with us, and neither is the virus
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,159
    3,566
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Air filter construction as school projects:

    DIY Air Filters For Classrooms? Experts Are Enthusiastic — And A Citizen Scientist Makes It Easy

    I see 20 x 20 inch MERV 13 filters sell for $8 to 12 each. Fans <$40.

    It could be made with a framework so filters could slide in and out. More intake area would be required for HEPA filters if they present more resistance to flow. They cost (much) more but trap small things better.

    Science projects could examine what grows on petri dishes exposed to filtered vs. unfiltered air. Those would involve bacteria or fungi (larger than virus) but useful principles can be learned. Actually some virus can be grown in similar ways but I imagine there would be opposition to growing virus in classroms. Well-founded opposition :eek:

    As an optimist I see 'back to school' as 'back to science'. We never talked about washed vs. unawshed handprints on (large) petri dishes, right?

    Telling kids what to do has its place, no doubt. But letting them (safely) see outcomes of different behaviors is just so much more ... teachy.
     
    fuzzy1, Zythryn and bwilson4web like this.
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,159
    3,566
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    An example of 'unwashed'
    Wash your hands2.png

    Which could be compared to a trivial rinse, a brief soaping, or the full-on 20-second recommended procedure. Or try it after hand sanitizer.
     
    #4526 tochatihu, Aug 23, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,159
    3,566
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Once you have 'growth', I promise that you also have bacterial or fungal spores that could be blown through a face mask onto a fresh dish. Or blown through open air. You see where I'm going...

    ==
    It's not exactly taxonomy, but the different colors etc. are different critters. So, do handprint critters look different from what grows from only air exposure?

    ==
    There is a limit to how far schoolroom microbiology can go, without an open flame to sterilize transfer tools. Many classrooms will not allow that. Again probably with good reason.
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,166
    50,060
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    our hospitalizations have been climbing steadily for weeks or months. 30% in our ma hospitals are fully vaccinated.
    no details on ages or comorbidities
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,667
    15,664
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I recently watched a 'viral video' ... a family practice doctor made two claims at a school board meeting:
    • masks don't work - a single virus is too small. But he did not realize it is the 'spray' holding the orders of magnitude more virus that the masks mostly blocks and minimizes infections.
    • vaccine does not work - one visit to a local hospital will solve that misinformation
    I'm sad for but not sympathetic for those fooled by this fraud.

    Bob Wilson
     
    bisco and Zythryn like this.
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,159
    3,566
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Thanks for liking #4525, but perhaps speak also to people at edgecollective who really did it, or GBH reporter Gabrielle Emanuel who wrote about it for a much larger audience.

    ==
    Schools are a necessary but slightly scary lung-gathering place. If small investments of time and money are likely to make them safer (with more air changes per hour), that is enough in itself.

    But involving the little lung-havers in figuring out what fan boxes do multiplies benefits. Once that door is opened, further educational benefits are constrained by time available, staff capabilities, and school budgets.

    COVID has caused many harms. If it can also lead to educating on direct benefits of 'oppressive' mask wearing, hand washing, etc. Broadly, it might lead to better understanding that humans and microbes will always share this world, that we are getting larger part, and microbes 'want to' get in on that.

    We have big brains and often (!) use them to our collective advantage. I cannot imagine a successful human future without understanding and controlling the microbial underplay.

    Opposition to knowledge gets many media clicks, but our enterprise benefits from educating next gen (allowing them to know) that we might actually be able to have 10 billion humans on this planet and hold at bay all these tiny competitors. I suppose it will require a large fraction of humans actually knowing how things work. So. I suppose it is a good idea to teach them.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,667
    15,664
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Agreed but they have to want to learn.

    Bob Wilson
     
    bisco likes this.
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    A bit lesser developed version of this was widely promoted here a year ago as wildfire smoke reached unhealthy levels. A single 20x20 filter taped to the box fan does the job, but noticeably bogs down the fan, creating a theoretical risk of overheating the fan motor. Multiple filters in parallel produce lower static pressure, less fan load, and greater airflow. Air cleaning effectiveness and quickness in a normal room, measured by home hobbyists with the right tools, was impressive.

    Substantial news publicity wiped out the local filter supply in under a day. We ran ours continuously for 10 days, until changing weather blew the smoke away. I wanted to continue this idea for cleaner indoor air and reduced dust accumulation, but my ancient box fan is too noisy and too much of an energy hog for this non-emergency application. Instead, several months later, I acquired several very quiet, very energy efficient (but also expensive) bathroom exhaust fans with 110-150 cfm flow ratings. After building airboxes of a fan and one filter each, I've had them running continuously since late December. I don't have an objective measure of the change of indoor dust accumulation rate, but the filters clearly collect a decent amount of it, and strong sunlight streaming through windows reveals very little visible dust floating in the air, vastly less than I see in dad's house.

    At these flow rates, the static pressures are well under the fans' specified operating loads. If their claimed flow rates are close to reality, then the air in each zone is getting filtered about 2 to 3 times per hour, depending on area and fan speed setting. This should be an order of magnitude greater than the outdoor air change rate of this house, so ideally I'm getting a 90% reduction compared to outdoor dust levels, in addition to reduction in re-stirred-up indoor dust. With my choice of fans, the noise level is quiet enough for sleeping, and power levels (according to a Kill-A-Watt meter) are 5 to 6 watts each on the medium speed setting.

    But for a school room, the box fan's much higher clean air delivery rate is definitely better. Noise isn't really excessive for that use, and the energy consumption is not at all unreasonable for the number of lungs and hours involved in a classroom.
     
    bwilson4web and tochatihu like this.
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    9,159
    3,566
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    #4531 philosophy. Dang. Here I go:

    Every young person wants to learn. There may be poor motives such as dominating others, but 'want' is there.

    Then come teachers who ideally are knowledge sources. Teachers may under-serve both high learners (who know more than they do) and slow learners for whom additional training is needed but often not supplied. But teachers must aim at (the largest) middle targets.

    Teachers need to know a lot. I am uncomfortable mentioning that I took California secondary-school teacher-qualification test early this century, aced it (readers ought not care) but I report that breadth of knowledge tested for was crap narrow (readers should care).

    ==
    Some students now returning to class may have thought burdens from parents a bit behind on their microbiology. I do not care about parental miss programming. I'd require (if only I could...) teachers to take up all traditional topics, and also touch on microbiology because it is a very important 21st century thing.

    To be clear, in no way will I indict students regardless of what they might have heard outside of class. It is for teachers, their skills, and resources available to them to bring young 21 century humans up to the task of being adult 21 century humans.
     
  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    24,915
    16,216
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    My impression too, admittedly from small-sample inference.

    Bu I've too often seen that keenness seem to sink away, starting sometime in the early teens ... and sometimes under what seems like active discouragement from nearby non-young persons. :(
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Mississippi Health Alert, August 20:

    Increased Poison Control Calls due to Ivermectin Ingestion and Potential Toxicity


    "• The Mississippi Poison Control Center has received an increasing number of calls from
    individuals with potential ivermectin exposure taken to treat or prevent COVID-19
    infection.
    • At least 70% of the recent calls have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal
    formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers.
    • 85% of the callers had mild symptoms, but one individual was instructed to seek further
    evaluation due to the amount of ivermectin reportedly ingested."



    Other news indicates that one hospitalization for this is known, but it wasn't reported directly to the MS Poison Control Center or DoH.

    Apparently this drug is used in humans, in much lower doses than these livestock formulations, to control a couple parasitic worms (including the one causing River Blindness), and for external treatment of some external parasites such as head lice. It is not used for any viruses. Overdose symptoms can include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension (low blood pressure), allergic reactions (itching and hives), dizziness, ataxia (problems with balance), seizures, coma and death.
     
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,313
    4,303
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Minnesota’s latest surge is stressing the system.
    Very detailed, and flexible data at https://mn.gov/covid19/data/response-prep/response-capacity.jsp
    13 ICU beds are available in the Minneapolis/St.Paul metro area (1.9%).
    About half of hospitals in Minnesota are above 95% of ICU capacity.

    Cases are trending up and our State Fair opens this Thursday.o_O
     
    bisco likes this.
  16. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    7,857
    6,658
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    52 States....but "probably" fewer state fairs.
    Lotsa fried this and that....
    NOT a lot of scolding by the usual suspects.

    lather. rinse. repeat.....

    @ learning.
    I have an immediate family member that traded her dot.gov CAC card for a teacher's desk in a fifth grade classroom.

    You may rest VERY well assured that young people WANT to learn!!
    Curiosity and Wonder are at peak and haven't been tamped down by the adults in the room....

    Her local school follows the current trend of "asking" (forcing) the students to wear masks while not mandating vaccines for the "adults"....although they're near or AT universal compliance for both.
    Some teachers, as it turns out, CAN learn 4th grade math.
    Not much in the way of blowback from either crowd.
    The bigs are employed at will, and the littles have to pay to come through the front door. :D
    One of the larger disagreements I have with my beloved home state of Indiana, is that they do school vouchers which I consider to be an extremely unwise program.
    My adopted home state took the minority opinion with caveats for some disabled.

    Camels have nostrils that should be covered TOO!


    Meanwhile.....
    NEA President Becky Pringle on Vaccine and Mask Mandates - The Atlantic
    I've listened to no less than two Pringle interviews aired on government funded radio.
    ^leadership: fail

    OUR LOCAL public school districts are individual fiefdoms and employ more or less the same strategery as all of the other states.....meaning that there IS no strategery.
    Some are locked down. Some are wide open, and there have been some pretty feisty local school board meetings.
    Most are open-ish - and masked....with teacher vaccination rates at NYC +20% but they just mandated shots in the Big Apple - EXPECT union counter-battery!
    ALL of the littles....still full of their natural wonder and curiosity (or perhaps boredom!) WANT to be in class, and they seem to understand that "face diapers" are the price of admission.

    You can't even get the bigs to agree to disagree.

    lather.
    rinse.
    repeat.
     
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,166
    50,060
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    a lot of kids may want to learn, but attention spans are not there for typical american system of learning.

    plus a lot of add, adhd, psychotic drug prescriptions, troubles at home and etc.

    there are lots of difficult barriers to overcome in the education system.
    unfortunately, those who are/were able to succeed, don't often understand what difficulties others have.
    and if they do, there isn't much they can do about it.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  18. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

    Joined:
    May 11, 2005
    110,166
    50,060
    0
    Location:
    boston
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    people are using this because they can get it at the tractor store or wherever. the same types drank bleach.
    ivermectin is being studied for covid, but there's no financial incentive for cheap existing drugs
     
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    20,185
    8,357
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    speaking of ineffective drugs, it seems Moderne's cureall has gone from 95 / 100% effective - down to not so much.
    Yet the new kid in town is supposed to be the latest and greatest (crossing fingers)
    Novavax Is Now the Best COVID-19 Vaccine - The Atlantic
    So what's the holdup ... is it being damned as fake news by the competition's stockholders - at least until they can jump ship?
    .