Prius Prime to the Rav4 Prime

The money comparisons isn’t considering the fully loaded versions where you start with $50k and $35k. Then (at least in my area) you count the Toyota direct $5k rebates on PP and the local dealer $5k markups on the Rav, you get a pretty clear picture. Of course there are advantages to the Rav for electric mile capability, towing and available cargo space. So if you need that a lot then Rav is the way to go. But if you don’t then PP is the clear bargain.

 

RAV4 Hybrid is 40 mpg apparently they lose a little with Prime.
Some places (eg; Wash DC) you need 40 EPA City and I believe RAV4 Prime makes it.

 

Well, the 2021 RAV Prime EPA rating is 40/36/38.....which frankly...kind of sucks. Only 36 MPG on the highway?! Yikes...

https://www.toyota.com/rav4prime/features/mpg/4544/4550

Toyota obviously tweaked for 'horsepower'...not good in my opinion! They also obviously mask that by advertising the electric range, etc...

 

Ya..it is a nice little car. I'd love to see it come to the USA....but we are SOL for now.

 

You can only improve the aerodynamics so much, and still look like a typical SUV. The hybrid and Venza are at 38 and 37 highway MPG.

The Prime is 6 to 7 hundred pounds heavier than the hybrid, has a 65 pound higher payload, and rated to tow 750 pounds more. That curb weight increase alone is twice the difference between the Prius and its Prime. People test driving the Rav4s back to back will likely notice the Prime feeling less powerful if it kept the same drive train, and that has an impact on sales.

The engine is basically the same between the two. The Prime's might be tuned different, but it appears a line has deleted from the hybrid's entry, cutting out the torque rating. The numbers we see has the Prime engine making 1hp more. Its increase in system power is coming from the different front motor. More powerful electric motors do not take an efficiency hit like engines do. Getting a V6 Camry will cost 6mpg over the 4 cylinder. The Rav4 Prime is only paying 2mpg for its performance increase, and some of that cost would be paid with the weaker drive train because of the weight increase. Cost and space have more of an affect in limiting the power increase for the motor than efficiency loses.

Toyota dropped the V6 option for the Rav4 awhile back. The V6 Camry and Rav4 Prime increase in power is roughly the same. The prime gives people missing the V6 an option with better efficiency.

 

I totally agree and get it. However, I was hoping the Rav4 could pull just a little bit more MPGs in hybrid mode on the highway ( at least 40 MPG). I still stand by the fact that 36MPG just isn't great at all for a hybrid on the highway. Heck, I routinely get 35-36 MPG in my 2012 Sonata Limited...and that is a huge ICE vehicle. I will say that the Sonata is one of the few ICE vehicles where I am able to routinely beat EPA. It has a great engine...

 

Don't compare what you actually get in one vehicle to the EPA score on another, that is an apples vs oranges thing. Instead, compare EPA to EPA, and note that this Rav4 Prime beats your Sonata on all scores:

The Rav4 Prime even matches the Sonata Hybrid's Combined MPG, though city and highway are inverted.

I routinely beat EPA in all my vehicles. It took a while learn how to do so on my '97 Legacy, that didn't happen until I studied hypermiling guidance a decade later. But starting with my '86 Accord, all other household vehicle beat EPA right off the dealership lot.

In my traditional vehicles, it has been the transmission gearing that made all the difference. That Legacy was geared short. The old Accord and my current 2014 Subaru are geared much taller.

With the eCVT, Toyota hybrids are effectively geared all the way from Zero to Infinity, thus removing gear ratio limitations from the MPG issue.

 

You'd probably get 38mpg with a Rav4 Prime; 40mpg with the hybrid. Though you meet miss those numbers since we are basing this off a sedan's numbers.

Perhaps a less powerful engine would mean better fuel economy. Perhaps a less powerful engine would end up being worked outside of its efficient zone on the BFSC curve, and thus use more fuel. It still has to do SUV things like tow, and being less capable than the ICE model will turn people off from it.

There is only so much hybridization can do when the vehicle starts getting heavier, and the design doesn't allow optimization of aerodynamics. The basic profile of a sedan already has an advantage lower air drag. Make the car taller, and give it squared off rear, the air resistance it faces is just going to climb.

 

Uh what? 2021 Toyota RAV4 PRIME | The ultimate power move.

 

I'm talking about highway mileage....I'm pretty sure that was evident from my posts. The fact of the matter is that the RAV4 Prime gets crappy mileage (36) in HV mode on the highway...and that is very poor IMO. I just want people to be aware of that. Because let's get real...many of the folks here will compare it to the Prius Prime and will come away disappointed. Myself included (obviously). Other than the poor highway MPG, the Rav4 Prime looks like an excellent vehicle.

I don't need a lecture in eCVT, thanks...I've been around here a long time and know how they work.

 

You are using an unfounded standard.

The Rav4 is a big, heavy, brick of a car. Putting in a hybrid system isn't going to negate those drawbacks; it isn't magic. In fact it adds more weight. This is true of all SUVs. The higher air drag means these vehicles are going to have poorer fuel economy at higher speeds than sedans and kamback hatches.

The Escape hybrid and PHEV is rated 37mpg on the highway. The C-RV hybrid is 35. The Highlander is 35. Despite its size and weight, the Sienna is 36 because it has a cleaner air flow transition between hood and windshield than these SUVs. The Rav4 Prime is 36, and that is partly because of the higher power, but it is also because of all the added weight. The Rav4 hybrid is 38.

The Prius v was rated 39 highway. Using the gen4 drive train, it might get a 42 rating. It has far better aerodynamics than a Rav4, and part of that is because it is lower. Buyers prefer the higher seating of an SUV though. They also might need the higher ground clearance. The Prius v couldn't tow, and if a new one did, it would likely be a half ton less than the Rav4 hybrid.

The Prius v was also slow. People are less likely to choose a hybrid option if they feel like they have to give something up. The lost space and versatility of the trunk hindered sales of early hybrid sedans. The Prius v is about 4 seconds slower getting to 60mph than the ICE Rav4. So a smaller engine might improve the Rav4 hybrid's highway rating, but it will make it slower than the ICE model. Plus, it will have a lower tow rating.

 

You mis-state that.

The fact is that the Rav4 Prime has a HIghway score of 36 MPG on the EPA scale, and 52 MPG on the CAFE scale. Various real world users, in differing circumstances, will cover that entire spread. (And some others will fall short of even EPA.)

Just as you beat your Sonata's EPA score, numerous Rav4 Prime drivers are expected to beat their EPA score. And I thought some early reviewers were finding just that.

 

What is the reason that Toyota makes it so difficult to buy the RAV4 Prime? My local dealer has been pushing RAV4 Hybrids, but seems to have no intention to stock the Prime version. When I checked the cost online, no dealer would sell it at MSRP.

 

Short supply and high demands.

 

For a vehicle that big? I'm not so sure it's all that bad, but I don't know why they keep making the RAV4 bigger with every generation. And this time they gave it what looks like the aerodynamics of a brick.

If you want to feel better about the RAV4 Prime, check out the new Wrangler Plugin. 21 miles from a 17kWh battery, 49 MPGe, and 20 MPG combined. Apparently, Jeep was more interested in having more horse-power than anyone could ever put to legal use than in providing a clean and affordable way for people to buy into the Jeep aura. All other makers of off-road-capable hybrids and PHEVs can now feel better about their own efforts.

 

Toyota greatly underestimated demand for the Prime. They secured enough batteries for just what they thought they would sell, and getting more for this year means less or no profit on the car; might even lose money.

First, there isn't any hybrid or PHEV as capable off road as the Wrangler. Second, people that just want the Jeep aura will buy another model, or maybe a base Wrangler. They aren't going to pay for the plug in.

It is the low end torque that actually has those that will go off road excited. They want it at low speeds for technical off roading. If they also want fuel economy, they'll get the diesel.

 

Something I learned the hard way this year is that the IRS subtracts the refundable portion of the American Opportunity Tax Credit from your EV rebate. So, even if you qualify for the full EV rebate, if you have a kid in college and are taking the AOTC, it will be subtracted from your EV rebate.

 

Yes, that has been always the case. The Plug-in EV tax credit is a non-refundable tax credit and applied always at the last. If you have other applicable tax credits (refundable or non-refundable types), then your tax liability may be reduced before you can apply for the EV credit.

 

Yes, it's kind of dirty like banks who debit transactions from your account in a special order to maximize the chances and number of overdrafts. The IRS deducts refundable credits before non-refundable credits.