Featured Solid-state battery wars

You got any other 400 or 500kWh/kg batteries?

 

Oh, I thought QuantumScape was 20 years ahead of everyone.

You're forgetting their nearly 2x energy advantage, meaning the same charging rate (in watts) results in around 2.5C, not 4C.

 

High temperature batteries are well known in missile technology but typically as one-time-use, primary cells. I'm speculating that temperatures high enough to keep the alkaline metal anode liquid solves the dendrite problem. It would mean different separator and cathode materials. Given the market of cell phone, laptops, and pads using today's solid-state batteries, what could go wrong?


Bob Wilson

 

LOL!

I'm an EE specializing in power and I've owned high power batteries in quantity since 1986 - NiCd, NiMH, lithium polymer and lithium ion.

I don't think you understood what I said *at all*. Read it again and see if you can figure it out.

 

I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, as most posting in this thread already know. I was named after one, but what's that mean in the overall scheme of things. not much, even to me, except maybe the load.

I took the pic below a few days ago. I first noticed it about a month ago, but it took this long to fit it into the schedule of recording it. It's frozen electrolyte for a spent flooded lead acid battery.

Anyone interested in dendrites and/or battery whiskers of any kind, might also be interested in some real world data to accompany their own research of batteries. There are other kinds of dendrites anatomically speaking, although some might consider those non relevant to the discussion or too far a stretch to include, but I thought I'd mention it anyway with the hope that it's not worth the aggravation to over discuss the dissimilarities.

Anyways !

 

Bad assumption.

Even worse.

80% of 250 vs 70% of 400. Hmmmm....

Why wouldn't you just do what we do now on our current lithium ion batteries and not use the full capacity? Using 100% of 250 vs using 70% of 400 will result in the later having probably 10 times the cycle life - and more available energy.

 

sion is not solid state (solid electrolyte and electrodes) it has a lithium metal electrode and a polymer separator (possibly electrolyte) with liquid electrolyte. I would definitely call it a lion although it's lithium electrode gives it an energy density higher than any other candidate with samples for automotive (400wh/kg) announced a week ago. These liquid electrolyte batteries with improvements sion, storedot, and the usual candidates mean solid state needs to get a lot less expensive to compete. Sion may not get costs down enough to compete in automotive, but they do have less stringent requirements for unmanned areal vehicles that have batteries with 500 wh/kg-700 wh/kg. People will pay for the lower weight in that market.

State of the art battery cells for inexpensive lion in a large pack
cells 260 wh/kg, 700 wh/l
Pack 165 wh/kg, cost in 2020 $125/kwh
lithium iron phosphate batteries that have less energy density are in packs at $100/kwh

 

One has a product available that someone can test themselves, and the other does not.

Why bring VW into this? Does a company that committed fraud for over a decade have a better chance of detecting it in others?

 

In what way will it bridge the gap? Those links are very light on technical details.

Ultium is a technology suite that will allow engineers to design packs for different vehicles for less cost. It can also adopt new battery chemistries as they become available. From the above links, and other reports, GM is still using Li-ion with it. There are improvements, but Li-ion has been seeing steady improvements to performance and cost. If that is all it takes to bridge the gap, then Tesla's new cells are doing the same.

The announced range for the 2022 Bolt EV is the same as the current model's. It is a few miles short of the Model 3 SR+, but Tesla stated ranges are a full charge, not the 80% they recommend for daily use. So the Bolt might already have longer range for a daily drive cycle. 250 miles is what GM is saying for the EUV. Makes sense as it is larger than the EV, and likely has nearly the same battery capacity.

 

It's really hard to get empirical data from obfuscated and purposely misdirected facts.

I clicked on some clickbate here at PC yesterday and got my first look at 12 volt hybrid gel batteries.
some info here
Renogy AGM, Pure Gel and Hybrid Gel 12V 200Ah Deep Cycle Batteries

I also searched out dendrites to help organize my post above yesterday and couldn't fit this link into my post than but I'll list it here today.
Scientists pinpoint cause of harmful dendrites and whiskers in lithium batteries

Besides the electrical and anatomical dendrites there are also these kinds which may give some that are interested in them some clues as to way there are so many different meanings for the word dendrite.
What are Dendrites? - EWI
Dendrite (metal) - Wikipedia
Crystal Habits and Forms

being able to understand each other, is it getting easier?

Electric Future youtube channel shares some potential advancements

 

I think you can really cut that down to high cost. If you have a 400 mile battery (approximately 100 kwh in an application like the tesla model S) then 600 cycles will get you 240,000 miles of range before second life, and even if they aren't suitable for the grid a chemistry like this makes recycling the lithium much easier and cheaper than conventional lion. This is not a start up, so I would not bet at all on them coming up with a chemistry so good that a manufacturer will pore the money in to get manufacturing costs down unless they get really cheap licensing.

Like sion this company has a liquid electrolyte and a lithium metal anode. The anode has a coating that acts as a solid electrolyte and protects the lithium from getting unstable. They have tackled the dendrite problem but likely have not yet solved cost problems. In 2018 their drone batteries were said to cost $500/kwh and the automotive cells are new.

https://media.nature.com/full/nature-cms/uploads/ckeditor/attachments/6903/WEB_PDF_2017-10-00_-_Batteries_Materials_Collection-_SolidEnergy.pdf

Having a liquid electrolyte (be it a gel, polymer, or solution) makes it much easier to get higher energy densities, but in order to make them safe there is often a cycle life trade off. Hopefully they will find a combination of materials that will work. For now the joint venture with gm means they have a less risk to manufacture. GM is also bringing its patents along.

you are looking at lead acid batteries. Think of a gel polymer electrolyte like a gel like toothpaste. It is more stable and smaller than building a battery with more liquid electrolytes and is much easier to manufacture reliably than a solid polymer electrolyte. The batteries in you cell phone are lithium polymer and its not solid its a gel.