Featured Solid-state battery wars

I think you've entirely missed the point - the Sion battery isn't considered "solid state". It's close to solid state, using a ceramic-polymer barrier, a very small amount of liquid electrolyte, and a lithium-metal anode. It's not an all-solid-state battery, it's just a better battery than either QuantumScape's or traditional lithium-ion.

 

A major manufacturer pursueing a doomed solution?
Hard to believe, I wouldn't bet on that.

 

"due to the potential of short circuits in the cell modules." Specifically an insulation defect in the module.

Inside the cell module is outside of the cell. This is a fault outside of the battery cell's interals, but inside the pack.

Even if within the cell itself, such faults can happen with any chemistry. GM recalled the Bolt twice to replace the battery over manufacturing defects. Each time they studied the bad batteries to determine the exact fault, and improved the manufacturing process to reduce or eliminate it from happening again. This is normal, and will likely be more common with a new battery type.

How many batteries has QS massed produced and installed in buses?

When did 4 layers become dozens? QS doesn't even hit the cost requirement. Which are targets they have set. When Li-ion can go for >1000 cycles, why is >800 good enough for solid state?

They are also partnered with a ceramics company that makes capacitors. Which use what for separators?

But QS has declared it doomed, so it must be.

 

This represents a problem for all solid state batteries, but it is minor if you read it.

They were not recalled because of operating temperature but because of manufacturing defects. Quantum scape is having trouble even manufacturing small quantities right now. They hope to be able to manufacture meaningful samples in 2023. These are likely to be expensive even according to quantumScape initially.

On the temperature issue, from your link -

All solid state batteries in automotive applications that want wide distribution are going to need to heat the batteries including quantumScapes which although they work down to -30 degrees C they do not charge or provide power well at lower temperatures. Auto manufacturers currently use liquid conditioning to heat and cool their batteries. Its relatively simple to tell them to stay at the proper temperature or have them warm up. This does use power from the batteries though.

The bigger problems for the Bolloré batteries is the cells have an energy density of 250 wh/kg and do not allow for fast charge rates. This was better than lion in 2012 when introduced but not very good now. The panasonic lion cells in tesla battery packs are 260 wh/kg. The lion battery packs in the ioniq 5 claim to be able to charge 10%-80% in 18 minutes. Still we do have working solid state batteries in vehicles they just don't provide real benefits today.

I really don't expect any of the better solid state technologies to be in a high volume car for at least 7 years. Manufacturing is tough and these costs are going to be high. But we do have a lot of contestants and computing power is helping make material choices easier to check out. We may see nio and toyota with demonstrator cars this year or next, but ... costs and manufacturing problems are going to take awhile to iron out.

This is part of QuantumScape's disclosure statement.

 

That's a lot more speculation and extrapolation combined with assertions that QS can do what they claimed but no one else can.

If you look at their "Solid-state battery landscape" (which you provided) they only reached 1000 cycles on the 1 layer design, and that one did not meet their own requirement of working at ambient pressures and low temperatures.

QS looks like a looser to me. Probably bankrupt or bought out for their patents by the end of the year.

 

There's no evidence to support your unsubstantiated opinions, therefore they might as well be written on used toilet paper.

 

When I can go to Walmart buy one for $49.99 and put it in my car they might have a point.

Until they are for sale we might as well argue who’s father is stronger

 

No reason to visit the local Toyota dealer. Guess Toyota USA, SouthEast Region, and local Toyota dealers don't want my business.

Bob Wilson

 

QuantumScape has a lot of cash, it IPOed through a SPAC last year and raised $680M, which should be enough to get it through 2024. If it actually has a good battery design and they can manufacture it inexpensively, they likely can issue more stock or bonds to stay afloat as tesla did, until profitable. The most promising battery start up from the last round provides a cautionary tale. That was A123, that could not figure out how to manufacture inexpensively but burned through money fast. The company raised money in an IPO in 2009 along with large US government grants and Michigan tax incentives. They were sold in bankruptcy to Chinese manufacturer Wanxiang group a little more than 3 years after the IPO.

That expensive Michigan factory that caused the A123 bankruptcy burn is now partially being used to produce solid state battery cells in partnership with ionic materials. I don't expect QuantumScape will burn money as fast as A123.

 

What reason is there to trust their publications less than QuantumScape's? They actually have a battery for sale now.

 

You must be very naïve not to trust a US-based, Brookhaven National Lab origin company whose products have already been used by Airbus Defense and Space and is already available in a large-size multi-layer version.

Oh, so Sion's Liceron is an all-solid-state battery (ASSB) since it has a lithium-metal anode, despite having a small amount of liquid electrolyte.

 

Develop a 200 C (400 F), solid state battery and I'll buy it.

With a melting temperature of 180 C, a melted lithium anode will NOT form dendrites. Of course super insulation will be needed to handle the heat loss. So give me a hard problem.

Better still, a Sodium, solid state battery with a 100 C melting temperature. Sodium is as close as the nearest, salt water ocean. Cutting the melting temperature in half simplifies the thermal insulation.

Bob Wilson

 

When your main criteria for company credibility revolves around whether they have gone "public through a SPAC" tells me you are shilling stocks and not really concerned with the technology.

Dan