Featured Toyota chief speaks out on EVs

Hydrogen station cost $700k to build.....

California Approves $39.1 Million for Hydrogen Cell Stations

 

Not on average.

From the article you provided...

Which means, an average a little over 1 million to “help” construct each station.
It is unclear what the “$700,000 to $800,000” means. Is that the companies cost after the state aid?
If before, why is the average cost so much higher?

 

$700k cost, is what it’s been taking to build True Zero service stations. They are expanding rapidly, so maybe they are getting better prices from the manufacturers in Japan.

 

SuperChargers aren't exactly cheap either.

 

how much do they cost?

and how much subsidy does tesla get for building them?

 

In the US for XLE. The price went up 400k yen in Japan, and the limited is $67k in the US.

Why it's cheaper in the US, currency differences, loss leader, can'tbe said?

You do not help your cause by only quoting the low figure of the range.

True Zero said that is a construction price, and capability of station isn't stated. How many dispensers, how much kg per day? True Zero seems to make 2 dispenser units. Looks like that is for the smallest station. That would pay for 7 to 12 fast DC chargers.

 

Tesla in the past has indicated a 8 stall supercharger runs about $200k.
This was quite a few years ago, so perhaps $250k.

SuperCharging is very simple. No storage tanks, no point of sales system, no employees, no building. Well, except for the large 40+ stall superchargers.

 

Especially in California, the for-profit nature of energy infrastructure is antiquated and powerline corridors are incredibly wasteful and inefficient. Much of the existing power grid is near a century old in California and it should of been replaced / upgraded a 1/2 century ago... But instead of investing in our country's future since WWII We've spent $30 Trillion dollars on invading and bombing other countries and setting up military bases on foreign soil, more than 750 forward bases on foreign soil currently in operation all the make a small number of wealthy people even more wealthy.

Meanwhile Solar and Wind is now cheaper than coal and Musk's Giga-Pack battery technology is changing the game of energy production into a new game of energy storage. As this technology advances and we do more to decentralize antiquated and wasteful powerline distribution grid of today we'll rapidly scale up energy production to meet the 2035 BEV goal, especially now that electric vehicle makers have created lobbying group ZETA for leveraging subsidies to reach that goal by 2030 instead.

 

I was using a, possibly outdated, $60k to $100k per figure for a generic fast DC charger. Tesla likely has lower production costs at this point.

The location does need adequate electric supply, but so will a hydrogen station.

 

And as the electrical infrastructure rolls out rapidly for the next generation of less polluting transportation what are journalists saying about one of the world's largest auto makers: Toyota CEO shows lack of vision, spreads EV misinformation, and spells the end for the automaker - Electrek

I very much appreciate the truth of this article that's written by someone qualified enough to be more right than wrong: Toyota CEO shows lack of vision, spreads EV misinformation, and spells the end for the automaker - Electrek

 

They're real cheap to build if your company is obsessed with mass production at lowest cost possible over the lifespan of all the vehicles you're rapidly ramping up the manufacturing of.

 

firing up a diesel generator to make electricity - isn't that akin to firing up brown coal to reform hydrogen? Isn't that Japan's stated plan to get their hydrogen - delivered from Australia? NIMBY?

not that this number is a realistic figure, but the historic record of cost overruns building the existing stations is 100%.
So I'm sure construction will now miraculously be able to keep it under $1.5 million .... probably be able to maintain them for free, too.

.

 

I suspect the generic price info you had was based on one or two charger stalls at each location.
Placing multiple chargers (8-42) at one location lowers the cost.
Or, it may be that the generic charger costs you had were the retail costs. Tesla, I believe, builds their own, so pay wholesale.

 

Per unit, yes. Overall, no.

Where will such large locations be created and who will pay for them?

In established cities, there simply isn't room and zoning presents challenges... not to mention pushback from those adjacent to the location.

In other words, you are arguing an ideal, something not actually practical... which is what Toyoda is saying... something enthusiasts don't want to hear.

 

Oops, included a broken link before. https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/03/f34/fcto-h2first-reference-station-phase2-2017.pdf

"...each of the three new True Zero stations will cost about $700,000 to $800,000 to construct..." - California Approves $39.1 Million for Hydrogen Cell Stations
True Zero uses modular units from Linde. So is the price quoted the cost of just the modular equipment, the construction of the site to receive the equipment, or everything? In the first link from 3 years ago, the modular equipment was projected to cost $1 to $1.5 million, with $300 to $400 thousand to install.

We have no other info to judge what this quoted price covers; no number of dispensers or amount of hydrogen it can handle. We do know True Zero has a minimum of two dispensers.

It was also info from several years ago.

Where has there been actual pushback from neighbors against charging stations? Most are located next to businesses, who might enjoy the additional foot traffic.

Either way, all the issues you bring up also apply to hydrogen stations

Hydrogen stations also require space. The picture above doesn't include the large storage tanks for the gas.

Zoning for flammable gases is more burdensome than for electricity. It is also more likely to draw pushback from neighbors.

As for ideal vs practical, how many fast chargers have been installed in the US since 2010 vs hydrogen stations?

Plug ins may not be practical for Japan, but that's because portions of their grid would be considered underpowered in comparison to the US and Europe. But then they also can't offshore the carbon emissions from electric generation as easily as Toyota did with hydrogen from Australia.

 

This isn't all that difficult. Tesla has already built a number of these. Unlike Hydrogen stations which require an outlay of taxpayer money, these are being built and paid for by Tesla.
Kettleman City (CA) has a 40 stall station with a lounge.
Norway and China also already have some of these stations.

Firebaugh CA is the site of a new one currently being prepared recently built, a 56 stall supercharger with a restaurant. I believe the restaurant is not complete yet.
I am not sure why you think building a commercial property inside a commercial zone is that much of a challenge.

 

Nice cherry picking. Again, in the metro area, that room is already spoken for. Someone would have to purchase & build. There still isn't a profitable model to draw investors... which is why most of what we see comes from Tesla investment or VW liability.

Look around. Where should be sites be and how many chargers? The detail begins to tell the story of those complexities yet to be addressed.

 

that's arguing the negativity that Toyoda-san is using for his indefensible alabi. Consider our adjacent City, border is less than a ½ block away. Irvine has well over 150k people, & since the city parks have plenty of parking, Tesla, is taking just 2 or 3 spots out of the 50 or so of parking places.



Same thing with malls that cater to 1,000's of people, grabbing a dozen spots at a place where people can eat or shop benefits both the stores as well as the electric car regardless of manufacturer. Saying anything about early adopters goes all the way back to cars vs horses. Folks trying to stop the inevitable.

The great thing about putting up just a couple stations in residential-ish areas is that it prevents the main locations that may have a couple dozen charged stalls from getting overcrowded. The city has to approve the use and its impact on traffic & installation is ok'ed by those guidelines
.

 

Know your audience. Oil capital has a heavy investment in land already zoned for similar category product and they seek something new to replace fledging gas sales. There will be some opportunity for locations & franchises. We will not have a one-size-fits all solution.

 

Where's the incentive? We just had a brand new hardware store build in reclaimed industrial land. There are at least 400 parking spots. Despite being a relative progressive state (Minnesota, who is currently applying to adopt California rules), not a single charger was provided. There simply isn't driving force to make the investment worthwhile. It's an inconvenient truth.