Featured Toyota and Hino Truck to Jointly Develop Class 8 Fuel Cell Electric Truck for North

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Port of LA has carb contributing $41.1M for hydrogen projects. I belive there is some DOE and CEC (California Energy Commision) funding but DOE is mainly funding R&D for this and not commercialization, they are leaving that to california. $9.1M is going toward electrical charging infrastructure for bev trucks, but tesla will probably need more expensive faster stations for its semi trucks. My guess is the government will pick up 30% of that lower tab for tesla to charge its trucks. 2025 we should have results. covid will slow some of this down. Really not that much money compared to light vehicles. My guess is heavier fuel cell vehicles because of the ease of placing fueling stations and relative lower needs for low priced fuel will be using most of the California hydrogen in 2030.

Time is money so this experiment is forced by california regulations. Diesel or natural gas are much more convient with many possible fueling locations. If you want to play at the Ports of LA or Long Beach, soon you will need to have short haul fuel cell or bev trucks. Hopefully reliablity of the fuel cell semis will be much higher than the bus experiments where maintenance costs really hurt. Lots of consumer tests with cars should make this much better than a decade ago.

 

The nose is too long and high which makes a blind-spot in the front. The steering wheels are too far forward which also reduces turn radius. A bus front end would be a better solution:


Here is an even better looking truck:


Bob Wilson

 

yes - CNG - not as toxic or as great a CO2 burden as coal ... though the energy for hydrogen compression & reformation seems like it would be just as efficient to burn the nat gas directly in the ICE - with way less complexity. Isn't it a relatively simple convertion to do diesel engine to natural gas? Not to mention the natural gas infrastructure is already here for the most part. Not that I have any animosity towards Rube Goldberg complexity (somewhat ironic, he too - like hydrogen complexity was from California)


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The energy content of hydrogen is less than the energy content of natural gas. Had Nikola stayed with their initial, natural gas trucks, they'd be in business today.

Bob Wilson

 

How much is it per car on the road?

Which is why Nikola's more recent announcements talk of BEV and FCEV, and why Walmart Canada increased their Tesla Semi order to 130.
Electric trucks are the 'inevitable future,' fleets say | Transport Dive
Tesla (TSLA) secures massive order of Tesla Semi electric trucks from Walmart - Electrek

Natural gas is cleaner than diesel, can be used in existing trucks with modification, can be cheaper to use than diesel, and is virtually everywhere in the US. Despite those advantages. CNG trucks still aren't as widespread as Pickens had envisioned.

Installing hydrogen infrastructure for trucks will cost less than for cars, but it is still a big expense. One that will be compared to CNG, BEVs, PHEVs, and even renewable diesel.

While time is money, federal regulations limit the time truck drivers can be behind the wheel, and most trucks have just one driver. Charging while sleeping is not time wasted.

Cab over engine is great for maneuvering among the streets of towns and cities, but they tend to have horribloe aerodynamics for the highway. I know it is possible to ave great aero on them, but it is easier with a hood. Most of the current truck designs have a a very sloped hood for aero and visibility.

The efficiency of a PEM FCEV makes up for the lower energy content, but if you are making all your hydrogen from natural gas, a CNG hydbrid will probably go the same distance as a FCEV for the same NG input.

 

Hino ..... even before they get off the drawing board, they are already falling "behi-no"

https://financialpost-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/financialpost.com/transportation/autos/lion-electric-quebec-company-took-centre-stage-of-canadas-electric-vehicle-space-in-only-two-years/wcm/50675b63-f809-44d9-90e2-c9a7c5069264/amp/?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=16020762742327&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Ffinancialpost.com%2Fentrepreneur%2Flion-electric-quebec-company-took-centre-stage-of-canadas-electric-vehicle-space-in-only-two-years
Gee I wonder why Jeff Bezos thinks electric beats hydrogen hands down ....

Even so, the owner of this trunk company did look at hydrogen options;

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Actually I prefer this one:

BTW, this is a working prototype, not a pusher.

Bob Wilson

 

Carbon tax. The solution to half of humanity's problems.

 

Tell that to a driver in a front end crash.

 

They are high enough to be safe.

Bob Wilson

 

The end of 2010?? Lots has changed in 10 years.

 

a lot has changed. especially the number of electric vehicles on the road

 

only if one aligns their faith in the ½ of scientists proposing man made CO2 has global warming significant impact. It's like people talking about their christian faith .... both sides can get so adversarial they start to call each other names. There's no need to hang efficiency and Renewables and clean air on something like CO2 when the other things are known benefits. Why offend so many potential allies with so many other benefits.

 

Amazon just revealed how its Rivian electric vans will keep drivers productive - SlashGear



We don't know how many they will deliver out of their target of 100,000 in the next 10 years, but these electric delivery vans seem to be designed from the ground up. I don't like the headlights but lots of cool design elements when you don't have to be restricted by hydrogen tanks or a hot engine.

Still the rivian van has lots of cameras so the driver can see what is not visible from the seat. I'm sure Hino will have to have cameras so the visibility over the hood matters less. The Toyota/Hino like the Freightliner eCascadia has a 400 km range. The eCascadia can charge its 550 kwh pack to 80% in 90 minutes, which on short and medium hauls is fine. Tesla's semi is supposed to have twice this range with its bigger battery pack, speculated to be 1 Mwh pack. If the tesla pack in 2025 is $150/kwh, that pack would cost $150,000 and savings in fuel and maintenance would likely be more than the difference in cost between a more subsidized fuel cell trucks battery, fuel cell stack, and hydrogen tanks. The big thing a fuel cell truck needs is breakthroughs on metal hydride hydrogen storage so that tanks and fueling costs drop. This could happen soon, but its been promised for a long time.

The Hino truck like the eCascadia likely looks that way because of the trucks they are based on. If either is very successful they should be able to redesign for better aerodynamics and ergonomics.

Let the trial continue. My guess is medium and short haul for most of the US and China will go plug-in by 2040. Still this is a fairly inexpensive experiment in the US, Europe, and Japan on fuel cell trucks, let it continue and see if they come up with fueling and storage.

For reliability the solution is fairly simple. If you put in a 150 kwh battery in the vehicle, then regen braking, and stop and go doesn't need the stack to be running inefficiently, and the battery can provide all the power the truck needs. Put in 2 of those mirai fuel cell stacks and you probably can run on one if the other fails. That should solve the maintenance costs they now have on fuel cell busses.

 

The Hino XL Series has some slope to the hood. I'm guessing the truck color, lighting, and camera angle have it looking less in the press release photo.

Still not pretty, but more form following function for visibility and aerodynamics.

Add a plug, and the effective use life of the fuel cells can be increased.

 

dun'no, seems kind of nuts to go expensive fuel cell, when so many very efficient hiybrid trucks are already running around the landscape, much less the likelihood of all electric trucks being far superior (already in use by Amazon) compared to regular trucks and cars.
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Some fuel cellers and their money need to be separated.

Bob Wilson

 

Really in the scheme of things the subsidies California is giving fuel cell trucks is small. Its just the amount the state would be paying in fuel cell clean vehicle rebates if toyota/hyundai/honda had sold just 10,000 more fcv. The head of carb for reference in 2009 promised 40,000 more on california roads by 2017. I do think for trucks it has more of a chance but that 10,000 psi fueling is not going to work well with current technology.