PP 2017 battery degradation?

FYI, PRIME is the same as Tesla in regard to charging up to 80%. A full charge on PRIME is actually only ~80% charge of traction battery and 0% SOC on PRIME EV range is about ~15%. I believe all PRIUS have a similar limit on SOC.

 

Primes do not have that 80% option. It's fixed at 80% period. You can't go above 80% charge even if you want to. And you can't go below a certain minimum charge. If Tesla (or your cell phone/laptop maker) lets you use the entire battery capacity, then they are offering the option of prematurely wearing out the battery. That protective buffer is built into all Toyota hybrids.

 

Good to know. I saw posts in prior generation forums that people are getting 9miles out of 11 miles that they initially started with. But I expect this to be lot lower for people who drive 20-25 miles every day and recharge every night.

 

Yeah, nearly every plug in and hybrid out there has buffer capacity at the top and bottom of the battery's capacity. Tesla, and maybe a few others, let the user charger further into the upper buffer for times when the additional range is needed, but they warn about the potential harm.

A potential issue I see with short EV range plug ins, like the Prime, is that the car can be charged from nominal 0% to 100% multiple times a day by some users.

 

Overall, I have not heard/read too many complaints about 3 years old PRIME battery performance. I have been driving EV mode 30-40 miles in summer and 20-30 miles in winter with daily charges for the last 2.5 years. Other than the seasonal reduction of EV range, I see no apparent battery degradation on my PRIME. Of course, YMMV.

 

Just to confirm, are you consistently using up EV mode miles every day and recharging every night for 2.5 years?

 

Worst case scenario is what?

Replacement of the battery-pack after 150,000 miles (or 10 years, whichever comes first) would result in an entirely renewed EV capacity connected to a hybrid system without many miles on it.

Isn't that an ideal for an old vehicle? Think of how much potential age problems a traditional vehicle faces at that point.

 

Worst case scenario it reduces every year and 7/10 years later the battery tech or design is outdated and too expensive to replace as that design is no longer in production. The cars will depreciate a lot similar to what happened to Nissan Leafs or BMW i3. Unlike ICE, Li ion battery tech and design (battery, cooling, charging, controllers etc.,) will evolve much faster.

10 year old Prime will have same problems as a typical new Toyota ICE. If it wasn't for tax credits, there is no value proposition for Prime at $27k base price.

 

7 years after production ends, the automaker must stock replacement parts. That's a federal regulation, part of what allows then to continue selling new vehicles.

As for "too expensive", that's an evade. There's no contest that it will cost far less to breath EV life into the car with a small-capacity battery replacement.

Keep in mind, a PHEV will retain far more resell value than an early-generation EV, due to having a gas engine. Even with reduced range, the PHEV continues daily-drives and long-time just fine.

 

Something to keep in mind is that parts of the hybrid system fall under the mandated federal emission warranty, and manufacturers get credits for extended warranties; this includes the battery. With that financial stake, PHEV batteries tend to be 'coddled' more than a BEV's. It isn't a guarantee for capacity and EV range, but it means the systems will take less chances with the battery so it can continue working as a hybrid while meeting emissions.

As for the PiP, its battery was literally half the capacity of the Prime's. This means the chance of more full discharge and charge cycles within a given day. Even with a buffer, those will start taking a toll. Li-ion has a quicker capacity loss at first, before leveling off(this is seen in Teslas). The PiP's older cells could be of a less resilient technology than the Prime's. The Pip also didn't have battery heater, so people charging in freezing conditions could have incurred damage from that.

 

As long as there continues to be incentives on new, used plug ins will have a low resale value in comparison.

 

Huh? Incentives are already beginning to end.

 

Hmm, there is no "evade". 2010 Prius trade in value is $5k, the "1.6kWh" battery replacement costs $2500 from Toyota including "core charge?", so it's half the cost of car which will still need maintenance for non-EV part of the car. So after 10 years you are paying $1500/kWh, the core reason for this is that battery tech is no longer mass produced anymore, there won't be any advancement to decrease production costs for that part #.

 

That is a hybrid, not a PHEV.

Think about how much less the PHEV will use its gas-engine.

 

I hadn't known Toyota had sold its 200,000th plug in.

 

You know all too well that reference was about the industry moving on to the next stage. You also know the scope of subsides is very, very limited.... so much so, most dealers want nothing to do with the early-adopter stage.

 

Yap, for the most part. My daily commute is 36 miles which is slightly longer than the EV range the PRIME provides. I don't do multiple charges, only overnight charge to replenish the SOC from nominal 0% to 100% (which is 15% to 80% in reality) every night.

 

Capacity loss is not covered under warranty for most plug-ins, unfortunately. If it ain't in the boilerplate - then it ain't so.
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As long as there is an incentive in place, the value of used plug ins will be lower to reflect the effective price of the new version.

 

duno imo - that's a little too much melodrama. Reason being, look at the Gen 2 Prius. Over 1½ or more decades old on some of them. There are people now building spare packs - & selling them to the owners, one of them right here on PC, and they're great! Even after paying for shipping! Keep your car long enough & it'll likely be the same for subsequent generations, including the plug-ins.
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