Featured PHEV Tesla Model 3

'enterprise, we'll pick you up'

 

I don’t see it, but as you wish.

A lot of my colleagues at work have Model 3s, and they have never had any range issues at all, including road tripping.

Also:

 

If you are concerned about a little engine, that van's is only 1L. The F150 hybrid will be getting the parallel hybrid system in the new Explorer. The combined MPG is 28 on the SUV. Not bad for a large vehicle that can tow 5000lbs, but not if your need is an efficient car. Guess work on my part, but that Model 3 has an EV range around that of a Volt, and better hybrid fuel economy than a Prius.

Not everything OEMs sell were developed by them. The 48 volt hybrids showing up in Europe among multiple brands were developed by Continental and other part suppliers, including ZF. A Continental spin off has a PHEV drive train, Plug-in Hybrids Too Expensive? Continental Has an Answer for That | CleanMPG

It appears Obrist has patents on PHEV control algorithms. So the OEMs might have the deal with them to improve what they got. The engine and its mount are supposedly "zero vibration", so they might also have a solution for a big complaint current PHEV owners.

Since a BEV won't work for all, we might need to stretch battery supplies for various industries, and hydrogen stations will take much longer the spread than fast chargers, ICEs will around for awhile yet. This particular one was designed for use as a range extender. It would probably be lousy alone, or in a typical hybrid.The goals are efficiency and being unobtrusive to the car occupants in a limited load band. For how Obrist has their PHEVs running, it seems to work.

 

oh joy - now we can have a, "let me tell you how cold it got" pissing contest.
6th AV east - Kalispell.

Our Montana home - prior to selling & buying 2nd home in Nashville. Still - i'm sure you're the top expert in cold - as well as what makes ½ range in ev's .... hypothermia, & all things power engineering.

Someone could be born & raised in Havana, & it has no bearing on their experience with weather elsewhere ....
But hey - if anothers' avatar makes expertise on their climate experience? Than 'expert' status is granted. Jeez - feel free to correct that tidbit too, via some other expertise if so inclined.
As for Tabernish Colorado - my plugshare app shows it's around 8 or 10 miles north of winterpark ski area? & it shows 3 places to charge along the way even in that area. Just think how many more there will be, in a few years!

.

 

they usually assume every EV ever made never leaves the road.

that’s the trouble with many of the sales metrics now 10 years in

 

Interesting article in The Atlantic mag re undersea mining and the world's limited supply of two critical to batteries minerals (manganese and lithium) and how the on-land mining sources aren't enough to supply EV and industrial and appliances etc needs for the world long term. Discussion of ecological damage potential for each type of mining. Billions being put into the development of feasibility of undersea mining in ocean trenches and permits already issued.

 

When is mining ever less damaging? This is just harder to see/monitor/clean up.

 

it's funny how offended some tesla people are, even though it is not intended to be a future tesla phev.
that was my impressionat first glance too, but as professionals, they should be more aware of the industry and intent.
ironic that what was intended to be a phev promotion turns into a tesla controversy, and more free pub for tesla.

 

OK so after owning 3 plug-in's over the last decade, I'm a PHEV proponent. I have seen the pro's and con's of using dual-fuels and have come to the conclusion that this tech is the next stepping stone for the masses to the future. And the future is going to be cloudy with a mix of ICE, HEV, PHEV, BEV, and yes FCEV not one solution for all.

However, I see a problem with this conversion. A small extender (like the iRex) is typically better at efficiency rather than power production but the power needs of both the vehicle and driver won't diminished; after all, the vehicle will still need to travel up long, steep mountain grades.... with a low SOC.... fully loaded with passengers and cargo..... heat on.... at 75mph. And, oh yeah, be silent in the NVH department because it's an "EV" after all.

"With the concept of the Austrians, the generator jumps in when the car is driving at speeds of over 65 km / h - not to direct additional forces onto the drive axle, but to gently recharge the battery."

Honda, GM, and Toyota have similar sized battery packs as the OP prototype yet need very large (that sometimes operate @ loud/high rpm) extenders to provide both recharging and propulsion at the same time. So how's a tiny (yet efficient) extender going to do the same thing yet NOT be mechanically connected to the wheels?

We rented a mini-van for family holiday travel: 4 adults, luggage, large dog, dog bed, bag of dog food, folding table and chairs, gifts, two large coolers of food, case of water, one small cooler, and a partridge in a pear tree..... Right tool for the job.

I say the same thing about trucks. Most folks can easily rent (or just pay for delivery) for the time or two per year they need the utility but it's the "what if" factor in peoples thinking that keeps on selling millions of these and SUV's every year.

 

My guess is, they used high-energy low-power 18650s like you'd find in a laptop battery. That means, they are designed to store maximum energy but produce little power - the same as Tesla's batteries. However, Tesla's packs are so large that they can still get a lot of power out of them for a short time. With the smaller pack, not so much. So, I'm guessing the extender provides a boost to electrical *power* (as well as energy) to propel the car.

The cells in the Prime are higher-power lower-energy cells, specifically for this reason, and that's why the Prime is the good version of this car - 640 mile range, up to 84mph in EV mode, and full-power available in EV mode, all for half the cost of a Model 3 long range.

 

As the saying goes, "This I got to see."

 

I'm on board, I just want better access. There are only a handful of rental places in town, none are 24-hours, heck only 1 is open on Saturdays after 1pm.

 

What good does a 6kW charger that's miles away from where you're staying do for you when you just want to get home right now and you've spent the night in a cabin in Tabernash? Nothing, that's what.

Those chargers are nowhere near Tabernash, nowhere near the Winter Park ski area, and you'd have to be plugged in all day to get charged up for the long trip over Berthoud Pass and back home.

Comment from Plugshare: "Ugggg!!! I got back from skiing and the “Fault” light was blinking. When I left it was charging fine. Now I’m stuck in town. The Foundry has a charger that is currently working, so my car is not the problem."

I've skied at Winter Park many times. I never once had to fill up on the way or on the way back, but no current EV has the cold-weather range to reliably get from my house to there and back, with sufficient range reserve for issues on I-70 (which are incredibly common, especially in the Winter). So, someone parked far away, probably took a shuttle (incredibly painful with ski equipment) and still didn't have a way home because of a charger fault.

EVs need enough range to do this sort of trip with at least 100 miles of range reserve, when it's 10 degrees outside. It's about 150 miles round-trip through the mountains (often snow-packed in areas) and no current EV can do that trip without charging or getting way below 100 miles of range reserve.

 

yep but they probably used the model 3 to get clickbait. Or maybe because it is better engineered for the design than the volt or i3, and using one of those phevs would just make you scratch your head.

Its doubtful that toyota is a customer either as they are going for a more powerful 300 hp rav4 phev, and lower powered prius prime phev. GM, bmw, and honda all have their own phev programs and likely know more than than this company.

Perhaps they are mainly trying to sell their engine tech to phev makers, although I'm sure that rav4 phev and clarity phev engines are more efficient ;-) this may be lighter and cheaper.

Yep it appears that it can not provide full power so it must maintain a rather big battery power. This was definitely a problem with the first volt and i3 under cold, or fast, or hilly conditions.

Honda in the clarity phev is using a 1.5L I4 atkinson producing 103 hp with a 17 kwh pack producing another 109 hp
Toyota in the rav4 phev is using a 2.5L I4 pidi atkinson producing 176 hp with approximately a 17 kwh pack producing another 126 hp
bmw uses a 2L I4 di miller cycle turbo producing 186 hp with a 12 kwh pack producing another 66 hp
Toyota in the prius prime is using a 1.8L I4 atkinson producing 95 hp with a 8.8 kwh pack producing another 26 hp.

A 1.5L seems the smallest practical inexpensive engine to give enough power to a 17 kwh phev. That 2 cylinder engine will have to come on when it doesn't need to come on. A 1.5L I3 pidi atkinson modeled after the one in the rav4 should be able to produce 105 hp at 41% peak efficiency, and run quiet and smooth in the hp range of the 2 cylinder proposed here. Toyota said the smallest cylinder size that worked well with its pidi technology is 0.5L otherwise I would say I4.

None of the applications listed above were designed from the ground up to be a phev, but the engines and batteries are in the right range.

A 35 kwh version of the model 3 battery pack (current not new technology likely in the next year) should be able to produce 200 hp. The price to tesla around then will be about $4000 for the pack and weigh about 210 kg. I believe that prime engine weighs about 100 kg dry, but you need to add more for fluids pollution control, transmision, etc. You won't save much weight on a 2 cylinder versus a 1.5L well designed 3 cylinder maybe 30 kg. You will save some space but that shouldn't matter much if you design the car initially to be a phev.

 

agreed - with an asterisk
* if big enough to haul luggage enough for driver & its 6 passengers ..... or 1½ tons of tile & grout - it'd best be equipped with dual electric motors combined with an atkison 260hp 3.6L v6.


- & iirc - Volvo (&others) are messing with 12L diesel versions - so one would think the whole Synergy Drive Market is pretty well saturated.

 

I think we'll move away from Li-ion for grid level storage. There are battery types and chemistries that aren't suitable for transportation that can work, plus mechanical and thermal options.

With an established recycling chain, lithium from old batteries can be used by other industries, like glass and ceramics, the other big user of the mineral.

You've made the assumption that this operates like a Volt, US Prime, or CARB hobbled i3 REx; prioritizing EV operation. It operates like a series PHEV should have been from the beginning, and how the EU spec i3 does when the range extender is called for by the driver, to a degree. When the car hits 40mph, the generator comes on in a narrow operating band to charge the battery and provide additional power for higher speeds. I'll assume there will be an EV mode for trips within the EV range, and when in ICE exclusion zones. In contrast, the EU i3(as @bwilson4web details in other threads) varies the engine load to to more match road speed; it wasn't optimized for series PHEV performance.

The Obrist genset was designed for low NVH in order to not 'ruin' the EV experience. They literally named it Zero Vibration Generator. They opted to add mechanic complexity(2 counterrotating crankshafts and generators) for lower NVH. With a series hybrid, the genset can be 100% physically isolated from the chassis. Not possible with a mechanical connection to the wheels, which would also add a transmission of some type to deal with for NVH. It is only about 53hp, but Obrist has a turbo option for 100hp intended for larger vehicles.

Locomotives and house sized dump trucks don't have trouble climbing slopes. The down side of a series hybrid, and why most other PHEVs have a mechanical connection, is lower efficiency at higher speeds through conversion losses. Obrist is only publishing NEDC figures, so we can't say how bad that drop is for this system.

As is, this system wouldn't popular in the US at this time. Which is alright, because the US is not the biggest EV market in the world; we aren't even the second.

The Hyperdrive brochure: https://www.obrist-powertrain.com/fileadmin/user_upload/powertrain/Documents/HyperHybrid_Brochure_EN_2019.pdf
Has a positive slant of course, but some details not in the articles. They do use 18650 cells, but whether power or energy weighed not stated.

 

Some technical details:

• Four REx speed ranges - when the load varies between these four levels, it will switch between the bands needed to sustain the state of charge.
• Premium - high compression ratio is the only concession to better efficiency. Sad to say, several low hanging fruit such as delayed intake valve operation and cooled, recirculated, exhaust were not used. It does have O{2} sensors to tune the air-fuel ratio.

In theory, rebuilding the REx engine with a variable, intake delay would give it an Atkinson capability. But this mechanically challenging. It would need a microprocessor controlled, delay.

Another approach is to tap the exhaust pipe between the catalytic converter and muffler. Routing this exhaust gas through a heat exchanger can bring the temperature down. Then mix it with the intake air behind the air filter. A microprocessor controlled valve can adjust the ratio for optimum performance.

Bob Wilson

 

The problem is more that it is an undersized 25 kw generator derived from a 2 cylinder motor cycle engine. Cooled egr is not needed as it has a tiny 0.647 L capacity. Atkinson valving would probably just increase rpm not really helping efficiency (an atkinson ice needs larger not lesser volume.) turbo charging and Atkinson valving sure that could help, but really that would add cost more than simply increasing the volume.

The obrist appears to have done some of this increasing cylinder size to 0.5, to have 1L having 40 kw and 95 kg dry for normally aspirated, and 60 kw and 120 kg for the turbo charged model or 85 kw in a larger model. For reference the prius engine is 100 kg dry and 71 kw. The newer 2L dynamic force is supposed to be physically smaller than the prius engine. The 3cyl1.5L atkinson version should weigh less than the obrist. Toyota has specified this engine for the yaris hybrid at 67 kw (90 hp) @41% peak efficiency.

Its all trade offs. If you only have the engine on, on the highway at low rpms, that toyota engine is quiet enough and low enough in vibrations. The extra crankshafts and other things may be adding to the extra weight over a more powerful Toyota motor. There is size, but if you are doing a new design you should be able to find room for a larger engine.

In the details you can find the newest model 3 based phev has a 17.3 kwh battery weighing about 100 kg that can provide 100 kw of power sustained and 200 kw for short bursts (guessing it is 5-10 seconds like bmw). This is around the same power and energy as toyota's upcoming rav4 phev.

 

Obrist is firing up the engine at speeds below highway, and seem to want to not have that annoy the driver. Plenty of PHEV owners complain about that.