Tesla booster

Not a ton. Maybe $0.15 per gallon, on a good day.

 

Gotta learn the non-peak times when the shortest lines are available. And I commonly get convenience fill-ups well before fuel gets seriously low, so when the lines are too long, can usually postpone until the next time in the neighborhood.

Costco lInes also depend on the size of the facility. An older 16 pump facility commonly has long lines, while a newer location with 30 pumps seems to always have shorter or no lines as I pass by.

 

Yes, but while on vacation (all the Costco's are programmed onto my screen via the Toyota DB in the mini SD), we can't choose our timing. If we need gas, and maybe a $1.50 hot dog, we either are there or go down the street. We've done both due to lines. Locally, the two Costco by us are almost always busy. Like I mentioned, it is not an often errand for me here, since I just plug in at home, thank goodness.

 

That is one reason I get Costco gas less often during travel than when home. That other is the scarcity of Costcos on my typical travel routes, less urban than home.

Gasbuddy is very helpful in finding reasonable prices right on my route with minimal detours, and in figuring benchmark prices to help guide opportunistic refills among the many un-monitored stations.

 

tesla doesn't have that 'second car for local use' yet, and there isn't much else on the market. but the next 5-10 years should present some viable options.

then it will come down to incentivizing dealers

 

To be fair, the EV crowd is pushing for battery tech to replace Petro so the idea that battery tech must at least offer the same conveniences is one obstacles opponents of battery tech will put forth and use to defend with their dying breath. My personal take is that battery doesn't need to match petro point for point, but just simply offer alternatives or straight up eliminate advantages that petro has, which they already do in some cases. One major selling point is the ability to charge your car at home so you don't have to make a specific stop to fuel it up. This negates some of petro's advantages, namely the requirement that cars charge as fast as fueling. However this solution is only applicable to people that own a house and garage. For owners of apartments and highly populated city conditions, the option may not be open, and to develop infrastructure to support them would be a massive undertaking and cost and deciding who pays for it will be an even longer discussion. You can offer the alternative that you can go visit a charging station and spend 30 mins getting coffee, eating, or doing something to pass the time, but this is an inconvenience that some people either do not have the luxury accommodate, or just simply don't want to. Battery innovation will have to tackle this problem, either through making batteries match refueling speeds, or offering services at charging stations that makes waiting for the charging more acceptable, or innovating a charging methods.

Just my idea for an alternate charging method so feel free to skip this:
My alternate idea is to have a portable power bank that a person can carry to their apartment or residence or work place that they can plug in. Since the battery of a car will most likely be massive and heavy, my idea is that the person buys a power bank with a capacity that just covers their commute one way as a way to limit the size and weight. This also offers up an advantage that the power bank could be the electrical equivalent to petro's jerrycan so people that may not require it as a running option can have it as a range extender for long trips. Should the power bank still not cover their full commute, this just means that they can visit a charging station but at a lower frequency.

Of course, there are still going to be people that will just refuse to use battery tech even if it offers equivalent advantages or exceed them (Look at seatbelts, many older folk who grew up without them will refuse to use them). There is no choice but to either make it so inconvenient that they HAVE to adopt battery tech, or just wait for them to die out. If the tech is far more convenient for the end user, then the new generations will adopt it.

 

vw is working on robotic charging stations that come to where your car is parked

 

I have friends whose second car for local use is an Audi or BMW. The long trip car is a minivan or SUV. Yes, we need less expensive BEV options for them to reach more people. Part of the reason there is less of them is that the public, at large, has range anxiety, and aren't cognizant of how little miles they are actually driving in a day. They want 200+ mile BEVs when a 100+ mile one would do.

Only some of the EV crowd is pushing that. Most that I have come across admit BEVs have limitations, and will point out PHEVs exist as options, which the other groups in the discussion seem to forget.

Just my idea for an alternate charging method so feel free to skip this:
My alternate idea is to have a portable power bank that a person can carry to their apartment or residence or work place that they can plug in. Since the battery of a car will most likely be massive and heavy, my idea is that the person buys a power bank with a capacity that just covers their commute one way as a way to limit the size and weight. This also offers up an advantage that the power bank could be the electrical equivalent to petro's jerrycan so people that may not require it as a running option can have it as a range extender for long trips. Should the power bank still not cover their full commute, this just means that they can visit a charging station but at a lower frequency.
[/QUOTE]Such a pack would be too heavy and bulky for most people to bother with. The Prius, non-plug, has usable capacity of about 0.5 to 0.8 kWh. It might go 3 miles on EV at school zone speeds. What you are suggesting would need at least 5 miles at speeds up 55mph. By the time batteries can mean such a pack that can be carried by one, average person, charging will be available.

There are already small, unobtrusive, durable EVSE(Level 2 chargers) that can be mounted curb side, on sign posts, and building sides. One company has made their EVSE system to be a wifi hotspot network, so they don't have to depend on charging fees for revenue. Then there are EVSE that mount and wire to lamp posts. I think some towns are trying the later in the US. The former are more likely to be seen in Europe at this time.

 

ask them why their second car isn't a tesla

 

I think a majority of posters on this thread (and indeed this entire site) consists of people with houses and garages in the suburban setting. I would like to say to you, ladies and gentlemen (myself included, btw): we are in a minority of world population regarding such living situation. Most humans live in city apartment buildings, often without a garage or even an assigned parking space. So when thinking about the whole BEV charging thing, get out of your own bubble and consider the majority of auto consumers. At least for the purposes of a thread talking about proliferation of BEVs and displacing ICE vehicles.

I fully agree that plugging in a BEV at home is a wonderful thing and is way better than visiting gas stations. I also love BEVs for just about everything they have to offer save for one thing - energy density. That is an Achilles's heel of BEVs right now. Once that's solved then re-fueling issues in non-AmericanDream settings will also be solved.

Just for a wake up call, consider that 11 US gallons of gas, which will take most Prius cars about 400 miles weighs under 70lb. That is heavy, but a grown man can carry that. If we are talking a 30 mile range, then gasoline will weigh just under 5lb. To do that in a current state of the art EV will require a multi-hundred lb battery. That is where the crux of BEVs currently is. This is what needs work, everything else will fall into place when battery tech gets closer in energy density to petrol, including the death of ICE, convenient charging, etc.

 

I'm with you there. Every time we go to Costco it looks like a 70's gas shortage lineup, I stick to regular gas stations, a few cents more, but that's literally the difference.

 

It's a small alternate idea to help alleviate some drawbacks of the battery pack system. Also EVSE either requires the infrastructure to support the higher power draw of these systems or you need to park at that location for a considerably longer amount of time which may or may not be close to your workplace of choice. The current battery support infrastructure works because of the relatively small number of EVs compared to traditional vehicles. Imagine if we were to inverse the ratio of EVs to ICE cars, the load on the grid would be enormous. Not to mention if you wish to charge your car while parked at work, the work place would either have to invest in lines to feed multiple cars (and dedicated high power outlets) or convert and build solar stations at majority of their parking space (which is a big upfront cost). There is also the discussion on who will shoulder the cost of adding charging infrastructure to residence that currently do not support them. I was once tasked with recommending an EV to someone who lived in the city in an apartment, and I found it very difficult justify it. At the end I couldn't even recommend a PHEV and they decided that a Hybrid was the best fit. (They kept asking if the regular hybrid had to be plugged in, I told them multiple times no, a hybrid is still ultimately a gas powered vehicle).

While we are on the subject, the push for BEVs have also pushed for better battery tech which means lighter batteries with greater charge. A consequence of those innovation could very well be a battery that a person could carry and offer enough power for a one sided commute home. People are known to carry powerbanks roughly the same size as their phones with them and a powerbank for a car helps alleviate some range anxiety issues that people have.

@VFerdman Thank you for reminding us that the current EV market only caters to a select minority of people. I do love the idea of the BEV and would love to make it available to more people.

 

but that doesn't answer the question why people with garages and second cars are not buying a bev

 

I don't think it is charging time, even 'petrol equivalence' that his holding people back from buying EVs.

I think it is simply price.

Just look at the market segment that Tesla holds--luxury sedans. Tesla dominates this sector, which is why Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, Porsche are all scrambling to come up with their own EVs. Tesla provides such an attractive vehicle that people are even 'trading up' their Toyotas for Teslas.

Batteries continue their slow but consistent improvement in range and price, which means that EVs will more and more start to dominate lower priced car markets, until it reaches the mass market segment of about ~$20k range. Then, I think, we'll really see them take off.

There is the issue of chargers, especially for people who live in apartments. I think even this problem can be solved. I recently saw Bjorn Nyland's video of the Oslo airport. He showed an entire parking garage where every spot has a charger. If EVs become a large part of the market, then maybe it will be profitable for apartment complex owners to set up stations like this for its residents. Right now the oil companies make lots of money from people buying gasoline at their stations. All this money could go to the apartment complex owners instead.

 

Here, the savings vary considerably depending upon your benchmark. And continually varies by time and location.

Compared to the other low price leaders, Costco (and Sam's Club, before it closed state-wide) varied at $0.00-20/gal lower than the other low price leaders. Today, my nearest Costco is $0.18 lower than the nearest Safeway and Fred Meyer / QFC (Kroger to outsiders), $0.04 lower than an Arco in the opposite direction, and $0.10 lower than an Arco in a different direction.

Compared to the area average as computed by Gasbuddy, today this Costco is $0.51 lower. Other Costcos are different.

Compared to the big-brand locations in the most convenient high-traffic locations, today this Costco is $0.50-74 lower.

I've traveled through some places with very blatant price fixing, everyone in town has the same price, or almost so, no matter the brand or location or traffic volume. Most of BC does this. Kamloops has two price zones a penny (CDN/liter) different, a Costco that usually runs 5 cents lower, and a rogue no-brand station or two running just a penny below the norm. Kelowna's Costco doesn't sell gas, and there are no rogue stations. Vernon isn't big enough to have a Costco. Its Safeway does have a 5 cent gas discount, but only with a store sales slip carrying a fresh discount code, otherwise the price is the same as every other station in town.

Price fixing ("collusion") is generally illegal in the U.S., though is seems that some areas either have legal exceptions, or are too small to bother with enforcement. But my home area has no retail gas price fixing, not even close. (I can't speak to the wholesale layer.) Some brands are consistently lower, otherwise prices are whatever that particular street intersection will bear. Differences of $0.50/gal within a block, or $1.00/gal within two miles, are normal.

 

The one with BMW traded it for a Model 3, and uses it for his NJ to Pa commute. Other friends are considering a BEV for the second car, even if it means a used one.

The standard range Model 3 and other 200+ mile BEVs are too high in price for what most would consider for the second car for the family, but the prices for such will likely drop in the next couple of years. When people realize they don't actually need a 200+ mile BEV for the second car, they can further shave several thousand more off that price.

The curbside charger/wifi hotspot I mentioned earlier is from a European company where single family homes and garages aren't the norm. They also not the norm in Japan, so they were the first to come out with a fast charge DC standard. CHAdeMO chargers might be as common as gas stations there.

If the range and charge time of BEV doesn't work for you, get a PHEV.

If there isn't available charging near where you work or live when it is time for a new car, a BEV simply isn't going to work for you. For some it is available, and they have BEVs without a dedicated charging spot. It ain't common outside California, but it should become more so in time.

Plug ins suddenly becoming as common as traditional cars is a strawman; it isn't going to happen. There will be growing pains at times in some places, but chargers and the required infrastructure can grow along with the number of plug ins on the road. Besides, air conditioning is an enormous load on the grid. In some places of the US, the utility company can turn down your central A/C remotely to reduce the load on the grid. Most plug ins will be charged at night, when there is a surplus of electricity production.

We definitely should be putting solar over parking lots, even without EVs.

That might happen, but charger ability and access will be improving at the same time. So by the time such a booster pack becomes practical, it likely won't be needed for most locations.

The Union of Concerned Scientists had once estimated that up to 40% of US households could make use of a BEV as one of their cars. That was back when BEVs available had under 100 mile range. Yes, there are many living situations that won't support a BEV or even a PHEV. Many people in such situations don't even have a traditional car, and that is even by choice.

 

In the 9 months I've owned a Tesla Model 3 I haven't convinced a single person to buy any BEV. I understand their apprehension, and expect the proliferation of choices from other manufacturers will soon put the option on their radar.

But after 14,000 miles I can't believe I'm able to travel so easily on electricity with a good amount of automation helping ease the journey.

 

Well, that's simple enough. Price. I can buy a used Prius for under $4K and it will be a tremendous second car. Now try to change my mind to buy a BEV today that will cost the same and do similar things.