Featured California slashing ZEV incentives. New limits introduced on range and purchase price.

i think the only reason no manufacturers have gone this route is cost. it may happen someday, unless some other breakthrough comes along

 

There are a couple of things wrong with this.

Battery types are different in a long-range EV versus a short-range EV. For example, Teslas have low-power high-energy batteries while the Prime has high-power, lower energy batteries. This is because a large battery doesn't have to produce a lot of power relative to its capacity ("c-rate" of discharge) to operate the car, while a small battery does because of its lower capacity. Teslas can discharge at 1C and still have a lot of power. The Prime needs 10C. Now, Teslas are stupidly powerful so they can draw 5C from their low-power batteries, but not for long before the batteries over heat. This is why they fall on their faces at tracks after part of a lap. But the advantage is, you get more energy from the same mass if you use low-power high-energy batteries.

And this might be the root of the problem. You said "power density" when I suspect you meant either "specific energy" or "energy density".

Power density is Watts (maximum power output) per liter of volume.
Specific power is Watts (maximum power output) per kg of mass.

Energy density is Watt-hours of energy per liter of volume.
Specific energy is Watt-hours of energy per kg of mass.

If we don't get these terms right, we don't know what each other is talking about.

 

I’m generally familiar with battery discharge limits. What I’m struggling to express is the desire for a high-power, low energy integrated skateboard battery which can later be combined with a second high-power, low energy battery having a modular form factor. (And perhaps the second battery doesn’t need to have the same power/energy characteristics- better to leave that open to experimentation)

You are correct, I should have used the term "energy density." By describing a box, I’ve implied a fixed volume that any potential energy source must fit within. I appreciate the correction!

 

maybe help understand then, how it is that Tesla, after running laps at the 12 or 14 mile lap Nurburgring - they set an unofficial record for electric coupes. One normally thinks of a track being much shorter than THAT track. How is it that the model S could fall on their face & yet still manage to sorta pull a record time.
Certainly there are limiting factors, where driving on the Autobahn for over 100 miles will cause a car to slow down to only 90 or 100mph, & constant ¼ mile runs will diminish maximum capacity but.... just recalling that the "fall on your face" sounds kind of like a FUD/stretch.

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It wasn't in a production car, so we don't know if they added cooling or used different batteries or what.

 

Okay, you thinking of putting a small battery into the a BEV so it can compete with the econo ICE cars. Lowering the price lowers the barrier, but it isn't the only one. I'm guessing the lower the price a person needs in order to get a new BEV, the less likely their living arrangements support home charging. And range anxiety is a thing.

The solution to those two issues is more public chargers. By the time that, and more rental homes support home charging, happens for there to be a large enough pool of potential buyers to support such a short range BEV, the cost for batteries will have dropped further.That means an even cheaper short range BEV, but most will opt for longer range for the 'just in case' reasons, real and imagined.

Europeans have two choices of battery sizes in the Kona Electric, and they will have options in VW's new ID EV. Like different engine choices, different battery choices will be more of the norm.

When preorders for the Model S opened up, there was a 40kWh option. So few ordered it that Tesla cancelled it. For those that did order one, they software limited the 60kWh car, and sold it at the 40 price. Tesla didn't want he bad will of telling those people sorry, and selling them a limited 60 car at a loss was cheaper than certifying a 40 for US roads.

I think those regulations would keep your idea for happening. They add cost, and we are talking about a low margin segment to begin with. From the car company's perspective, too few people will likely buy the short range car or the extra battery to make the cost of bringing both to market worth it for them. Those costs are also a hurdle for the car companies offering battery upgrades.

Also for add on range extenders. Such costs need to be paid for the those built into the car, but designing such is probably cheaper than designing a modular system for adding such later by a dealer. It would also be cheaper to buy than paying dealer labor to install later.

For the niche you are looking to fill, I'm still hoping a BEV trike will be successful.

 

Agree, feel like that fits Toyota given their opposition to the Cal Air Resources Board rulemaking ability, joining in the Trump administration suit.

 

Probably the only time it really makes sense to make very small BEV batteries is when you know the exact use case.
Such as a BEV mail truck that only drives something like 30 miles or less every day, day in and day out.
Most car owners will sometimes need/want longer range and even if they don't the bigger overall range means that they don't have to charge as often and/or they keep the battery SOC more in the middle range, reducing battery charge cycles thus increasing the battery lifetime.

Mike

 

Yes, the mental exercise I slid into was “Okay, how do we get properly cheap starter EVs?” That led me to think of a car with a very small battery, and an electric drivetrain that is less than capable of 0-60 in two seconds. Honestly 11 seconds would be okay. Maybe it perks up a little when you add a second battery/range extension gadget.

Your observation about living arrangements for economy car owners is good, but there are still plenty of people parking econocars in powered, attached garages. New construction and electrical upgrades to older places will help. Public charging might help, though honestly I think the ability to avoid public energy replenishment is a huge and underappreciated selling point of EVs.

Part of why I think a low end electric car is important is auto credit. Right now loans are incredibly easy to get, but it wasn’t always so, and it may not stay the way it is now. So I think it would be useful if somebody had some electric transportation on the market that the average earner could buy on a 24-36 month note.

From an eco standpoint, a zero emissions car is mostly worthless if nobody can actually afford to buy one.

I had also imagined the “battery slot” idea with the thought of alternately dropping a range extender genset in there. But the person who owns the car doesn’t need to own that as well. If it’s easy enough to pop modules, it could be a weekend rental or a seasonal lease or something.

I’m a skinflint with cars. 25 years ago I drove cheap cars because I had to. I can afford a lot more car now, but I don’t want to. I want a safe and reliable transportation appliance without an ounce of fat on it. I guess it doesn’t matter to me how many wheels are on it, as long as I can drive it everywhere I’m used to going with the same license and insurance I already have. I understand that trikes often require motorcycle licenses; that’ll have to change.

 

... i suspect they'll try to carve out some special hydrogen legislation with 2 times the usual Bev credit so they won't have to go BEV, similar to what they've done before.
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will be interesting to see if cali caves to a known dissenter

 

Sounds like you're describing my Spark-E.

 

I’ll have to read up on that one, never seen one before.

I’ve had rides in a regular spark, not bad at all.

 

Someone didn't read post #32 ..... or put another way, great minds think alike.

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Battery size plays a part in performance. The Model 3 SR and LR have the same motors, but the long range one is quicker.

I like the idea of modular slots, but I don't see the car manufacturers doing them because of various regulations causing doing so an increase in development costs. I think a third party battery or genset on a hitch haul or trailer more likely.

Cheaper BEVs will come, but the cost reduction won't be in the battery. In terms of materials, engines are iron or aluminum with mostly steel bits connected to them. Motors are mostly copper. I think most know which metal costs more.

Many past EV conversions were a DC motor connected to the factory manual transmission, because of cost and ease of doing. Continental and another major auto parts supplier are working on two to three speed transmissions. One of Volvo's commercial BEV trucks uses a conventional transmission.

Future entry level BEVs will reduce the price by using a smaller motor, possibly DC, with a multi speed transmission.

 

nice