1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Possible modification to HV battery

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Accessories and Modifications' started by Raphael Muscarelle, Jun 28, 2019.

  1. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    You're on track with "low memory problem" aka: low capacity. Toyota design battery packs to function normally down to 50% capacity. Once you you get that low you can experience that sudden drop on the meter. Key to cycling the pack through three increasingly deeper discharges and recharge is being able to monitor the voltage draw down of each of the 28 modules so you can find a bad one before it goes bad.
     
  2. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Basically, you want to get as much data as possible from each of the 28 modules so you can rebuild a pack that will last... Here's what my spreadsheet data looks like on one of my packs:
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Nice. I'm going buy what school said. Slow trickle charge will rejuvenate the memory. Yes they did talk about how to fix these batteries even tho they were not out yet "I THINK" . I Know they were training guys after Linkin tech. Infact they were sent there by Toyota.
    My voltages are great actually. Holds a charge good. Just strange resistance on 2 blocks which I think just might be the bus bars. But just in case it is in the cells, I got some used ones and charging them now.

    If we think about how the Prius charges and uses the battery it is no wonder it gets bad memory.

    It rips out electrons and jambs and slams them back in at unpredictable rates. Never gets even close to 100% charged. Mine almost never was charged 66% so now it has 66% capacity as per the tests in the apps. I actually forced charged it and got up to 80%

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  4. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
  5. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    All this discharge to lower voltage might be good for something I am not sure about.

    Just if you read about how NIMH batteries like I had to brush up on. What he is makeing makes total sense
    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  6. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I would like to get an app that would log all that info and more that you did by hand.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  7. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Anyone in here explain why the battery pack can only be charged to the capacity of the weakest cell?

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  8. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    For starters, trickle charging doesn't do anything to address battery memory / reconditioning lost capacity needs. You need deep discharging and recharging. Here's the exact science that explains what that does:
    BU-807: How to Restore Nickel-based Batteries – Battery University

    Second, what are the specs of the charger you're using? To trickle charge a NiMH high voltage battery pack you need high voltage above or equal to what the pack produces at full capacity and if voltage is stuck on weakest voltage module number then your charger is not strong enough or not charged long enough.

    The Prolong charger uses the NiMH charging algorithm under 1 amp loads (0.03 amps per module) that's modified slightly based on sensor feedback (still need to confirm) and this charge once it has the pack up into the 240v - 245v range / 8.6v per module and higher the balancing stage begins and fully charged modules will dissipate excess charge through heat while the modules not fully charged catch up so the whole packs has 28 modules that are all the same voltage / balanced once you're done.
     
  9. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Indeed

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  10. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hybrid Automotive used to recommend going all the way down to 0.6 per module on 3rd and final discharge but that's alot of time and weaker modules were failing that way so now they only go down to 3 volts on deepest discharge:

    Screenshot from 2019-06-30 10-21-28.png
     
  12. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
  13. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    6,404
    6,062
    0
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Raphael,

    Toyota uses a band of ~43% to ~65%. This is to provide a long useful life.

    Think of it like this.

    An NiMH battery has a finite number of uses or full cycles available before it's just worn out. (we're assuming no battery maintenance here) If you were to take a brand new Prius HV battery and discharge it completely to 0%. Then charge it to 100%. That is one full cycle. A typical NiMH battery can do that ~1000 times. and last about 3-5 years. After that, it's useful life is over. This is similar to a cordless drill.

    Now, lets do the same experiment, but limit ourselves to discharging to 42% and charging to 65%. A very low stress band of energy cycle for the battery. Now I may get 75,000 cycles out of it, with the same exact car performance characteristics. Now the battery lasts potentially 10-15 years and Toyo can actually warranty them for 10-15 years.

    this is very similar to the reason why many Gen 2 Prius vehicles have an 8+ year old 12v battery. The 12v battery is only used to boot up the electronics. It has a very easy life.
     
    #33 TMR-JWAP, Jun 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
    Greenteapri and GrGramps like this.
  14. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Thanks I realized that already.
    Usualy discharging into bottom 10% hurts battery alot
    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  15. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    If useing prolong discharger it might be good to take cell voltage readings in different intervals. Not sure if that would provide useful info.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  16. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Well... Sometimes...

    Prolong whole pack charging is ideal when the pack is in the car and put together and individual module work is best when the pack is out of the car and partially disassembled. But yes, there are times where I charge and balance with Prolong in the car, then pull the pack and get self-discharge voltage reading from each module a day or many days after the pack has sat so as to find bad modules with growing self-discharge failings.
     
  17. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    What would individual cell voltage drop be?

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  18. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    There's 6 cells in a 8.2volt module and there's 28 modules in a pack... You can only replace a module, you can't replace a cell... But because the pack is wired up in series and not parallel, if one of those 168 cells fail, the whole pack has technically "failed" and you're bleeding out in shark infested waters in terms of how many dishonest people, especially stealerships will be willing to take more than the car's value in repair costs... But if you're eager to learn DIY you just replace one module for $30 and all is well for a year or longer depending on how thorough your effort is.
     
  19. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    1,932
    767
    0
    Location:
    Lagos
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Can we now sort of say, hyper milling, can get us to maybe, say, 75k cycles?
     
  20. Raphael Muscarelle

    Raphael Muscarelle Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    661
    222
    0
    Location:
    Cape Canaveral Floridia
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    When testing under load the voltage is gonna drop somewhat. So when testing under load how far of a drop is acceptable to you and are you looking for battery to sustain a voltage under load?

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.