Featured Toyota still balking on EV's

VW has a BEV dedicated platform, and will have a BEV only factory inaddition to expansions for EVs at current factories, even in the US. We just won't see a model on that platform until 2021 here. VW is focusing on their home market and Asia before North America.

Japan is fixed on the idea that BEVs will only work for short range city cars. There was the conclusion their government and car industry reached decades ago when experimenting with EVs using NiMH and lead acid. A more valid reason is that their residential electric grid isn't well suited for supporting home EV charging.

Because of the FCEVs costs, Toyota and Honda are pushing hydrogen FCEV elsewhere in order to support the production of cars back home.

 

picking nits? How many 'new' owners (per the previous thread) moved on to pure EV - enabling 'used' sales for those who couldn't fork up for brand new? And sister vehicles, sold in other parts of the world, now that we're 1/2 way thru 2019? So how, in a word, does that equal 'no satisfaction'. If it's not (even tho plugin sales ramped-up WAY faster than hybrid sales) than hybrids brought no satisfaction either.
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A gentle correction:

I can easily drive +700 miles in 18 hours, 24x7, using the SuperCharger network. For me, SuperCharger remains a critical feature of our Model 3. Hiring staff and facilities that are mostly idle is not nearly as useful.

Bob Wilson

 

I see the magic formula now!

152,000 / 59,000,000 equals 0.00257... Ah, there's the problem. I was rounding it down to zero. My bad.

Look, I'm not out to rain on your parade, rather just to put it in perspective. I've said it many times- I think there's a real future to EVs. It's just only begun beginning though. Give it a generation.

 

The Volt was not abandoned. GM is selling it in China under the name Buick Velite--they have a new model this year and an electric model (based off the Bolt) called the Velite 6 MAV.

Apparently 'Buick' is a well respected brand in China--it was the choice of many famous Chinese leaders over the years.

Buick's version of the Volt will live on in China, along with the LaCrosse | Get the latest car news, car reviews, auto show updates, and racing news from Autoweek. News for the auto enthusiast.

 

Volt enthusiasts established the precedent of separate markets, absolutely refusing to acknowledge worldwide efforts. They fought and fought and fought for over a decade, fiercely attacking anyone who attempted to include Japan or China in activity that took place in the United States. Now, they must reap what they sowed. Making matters worse, some got to the point of hostility (offensive online posting) to divide the market here in the United States. They fortified the narrative that "EV market" was all that mattered, that "mainstream consumers" would simply follow suit following expiration of tax-credit.

That was a brutal history I will continuously remind people here of... because we've seen that cycle repeat. It started with attacks on Toyota's hybrid system with Two-Mode. That went on for years and years, then finally collapsed when the technology proved unworthy to compete with traditional vehicles. Sound familiar? The very same thing played out with Volt, despite all the reminders and the "too little, too slowly" concern expressed over the bankruptcy recovery about the technology.

And sure enough, failure to spread the technology from Volt to something capable of sustainably returning profit is undeniable. The opportunity to use tax-credits as intended (to help with the spread) was wasted. Now, if GM really hasn't abandoned Volt for this market, the technology will have to compete directly against GM's own traditional vehicles (the true competition) without subsidies.

Remember, the point is to change what is offered at dealers, here. Take a look around. Each automaker faces their own set of challenges to change purchase choices for their own customers. Notice how Toyota is doing an absolutely incredible job of pushing out traditional vehicles? RAV4 hybrid is proving extremely popular. That's paving the way for plug-in models.

So what if the narrative that "Toyota is still balking on EVs" is what you hear from enthusiasts? They set a terrible precedent that is now coming back to haunt them. Anyone who takes the time to look for true change will find it on Toyota dealers' lots. It may not be the speed or approach that's excited, but it is an undeniable large-scale shift away from traditional vehicles setting the stage for more change.

 

Honestly, it it probably just me but I still think of Tesla as an upscale 'luxury' vehicle. All things considered, I think the Tesla and Prius, etc.. are still in different classes despite the efforts of Tesla ( please don't flame me...this is just MY opinion ). I'm not encouraged by the pricing games Tesla has played recently either ( the gas savings 'incentive' is particularly hilarious... ).

 

That yawn response is an excellent example of a passive-aggressive enthusiast. Showing indifference to such a serious situation is how we identify enabler activity. That's what becomes a part of group-think, the very problem that contributed heavily to Volt's downfall. Those sharing that attitude invited innovator's dilemma. Essentially, they sabotaged GM's efforts by encouraging the niche. It was progress, but the wrong direction and no one was willing to call out the mistake.

It was an error on a monumental scale. All that money invested went to what? Remember, the intent with Volt was to be a high-volume seller. It's not like Toyota's investment in Mirai that is produced at low-volume with clear intention to only sell at that small number and only in limited markets. It's kind of like Tesla back when Roadster served as a real-world research vehicle. Toyota has stated there is no mainstream intention yet with that generation. Decisions will come later, exactly as their all-electric rollout has been presented.

So what if you don't care about the well-being of an automaker? Very few actually do. Most focus on what they see at autoshows, which has little reflection of what they end up purchasing. Tesla offers premium vehicles. Whether or not you want to call them a "luxury" automaker makes no difference anyway. Each automaker has their own audience. Toyota's is much more reflective of mainstream consumers. Their vehicles are ordinary... something most enthusiasts would yawn at.

 

When I got my gen III prius people thought it was more expensive that it was (probably the aftermarket head unit ;-)). Prius always went to wealthier people, even though lower earners often bought more expensive trucks and SUVs.

A 240 mile tesla model 3 standard plus is now $40K, while a 2007 prius touring adjusted for inflation was $29K ($23,700 back then), both got tax incentives. EPA says the tesla will cost $2,250 less to fuel over 5 years than that prius. It is a different class but probably similar buyers (although the tesla skews younger), and many are bringing the extra money. Think of it less fuel, very good safety systems, radar cruise, more comfort, better sound, better ride, acceleration, etc.
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When you consider the likely buyers of a plug-in vehicle the taller hatchback model Y probably will be an even better seller to the segment.

Yep I would call the volt a big success for GM. GM's leaving europe and concentrating on north america and china (the 2 largest car markets) is a good move. The renamed velite is an important part of gm's china strategy. GM is still slow moving. They should have gotten the voltec into a medium sized crossover for the US market by now, but .... missed opportunities are a part of the new gm. Management is much better than it was but dead wood is still there.

IMHO if toyota wants to stick with phevs instead of bevs that's fine. Just don't pee on me and tell me its raining. The mirai is not the future. I don't want to hear from toyota why the market is not ready for bevs while hydrogen is giong to take over or somehow after all these years non-plug-in hybrids are going to take off and be better selling.

 

I think that's an excellent point worthy of recognition. Personally I think Toyota's best cars are their non-Prius-branded hybrids, and I'm thrilled to see them taking off.

 

sorry i'm not understanding a couple of things john - & it seems circuitous -
- Toyota lovers here wish that Toyota sold something Niro/Model3/Bolt/Kona/esq like .... a nice, decent range ev with quick charging.
- how is the Volt being 'Canceled' (not true, as mentioned above by Lnewt) a way to rationalize that it's too soon for Toyota - when in fact plug-in's growth has been at a much faster rate then hybrids market begin to grow?
- How is gm refusing acknowledgement of 'worldwide markets' when volt-esq products are being sold there, as Lnewt points out
- how is continually damning gm for the volt 'canceling' (not ... see above) any kind of fail, a proof, that volt's tech isn't/wasn't leveraged - when in fact - gm use their tech for the Bolt .... & have their kona/like test mules running around the landscape, already trademarking it as a EUV (electric utility vehic). Should gm already have their EUV in production? ..... just to 'prove' they are using vault tech speedily enough?
Wait .... in defense of Toyota, it keeps getting posted on PC, that TOYOTA will bring EV to Market - in their own time - because Toyota rushing things to market would be following gm's folly .... ah la the Volt.
Circuitous
Toyota doesn't need to defend their self to us - the plug-in niche market if they wana enter the ev market later. If they want to invest greater sums of lobbying & money on hydrogen? - fine. As long as fossil fuel can keep large land barge gas burners running, & hydrogen being reformed ... that ok for now ..... BUT ... holding on to nasty things that GM fanboys say or used to say - & then saying Volt = fail, is hardly enlightening .... after all - the on-line forum people get nasty over different paint manufacturers, Rock & Roll groups, reality shows, much less cars - & peripheral devices used to move them down the road.
So it's probably healthier to just let it go - as Yours Truly had to do when he got ripped off with a Chevy Vega-rolling time bomb, some 4½ decades ago .... especially since we all want pretty much the same thing greater economy with less non-renewables.
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Well, Teslas are upscale cars, and that was intended by the company from the beginning, starting with the more expensive, higher margin segments. The Model 3 isn't targeting the Prius or Camry, but the BMW 3 series.

 

Exactly..However, I still hear comparisons between the Model 3 and the Prius Prime and even the regular Prius. In my mind they shouldn't be compared.

I'd also say that Lexus would be a brand that Tesla is targeting.

 

They are compared because there are few plug-in and alternative fueled cars truly available nationwide. Then the Prime was supposedly going for a more upscale presentation than the Prius, and the BEVs with the range to compete with the Model 3 start at around the same price, even though they aren't upscale brands.

While Tesla is an luxury brand, many, with several here, have traded in a Prius for a Tesla.

Tesla is targeting Lexus, as well as Mercedes and Audi. I just didn't now what their performance sedans were called. The ES is not a performance car. The hybrid one that is, is in the Model S price range.

 

Low-Hanging fruit ($7,500 early-adopter opportunity) is in no way representative of ordinary shopper sales.

 

IMHO, this remains a curious coincidence that does not match my experience. I bought the Prius Prime NOT because of the tax credit nor the tax credit for the Model 3. I'll use them, it would be stupid NOT to use it, but it played no part in my purchase decision.

Do you need details, private or public?

Bob Wilson

 

My comment wasn't about sales, but as a point as to why Prius to Model 3 comparisons could be being made.

Some of the members here that have gotten a Tesla probably took advantage of the various incentives available to the Prius through the years.

 

• $1,000 credit for a home EVSE.
• $4,500 credit for the Prius Prime.

So I bought a Tesla Standard Range Plus Model 3 ... yes I will claim the $3,750 credit in 2019 taxes.

Bob Wilson

 

As mentioned countless times by me, the "EV market" narrative is not representative of what we will see once this early-adopter stage (clearly defined by tax-credit availability) comes to a close. Statistical misrepresentation is a really easy trap to fall into, especially with generous subsidies involved and an ample amount of low-hanging fruit. That next stage in rollout process is far more difficult and Toyota much better positioned to address that.

Anyone can build an expense electric-drive system. Making it affordable and available on a wide variety of platforms is an entirely different matter. Toyota's distribution of HSD is an undeniable example of that. Remember, the upgrade to deliver the full EV driving experience only requires the adding of a one-way clutch. Having the rest already in place provides a simple next-step forward.

Since there is no other platform using Volt technology available, Volt itself is no longer being produced, and no hybrid version of any SUV offered, whatever term you want can be used to describe situation GM customers now face. Semantics is a moot point. It is obviously "too soon" for GM.