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2002 Prius ABS problem.

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by Kettler21, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    Hello. I’m new here and needing a little help.

    So I have a fair amount of experience doing conventional vehicle repairs, I’ve actually worked as a mechanic professionally in the past. I do not however have much experience with hybrids. I’ve undertaken the repairs on this 2002 as it is my sisters car.

    The issue described is the brake alarm coming on upon start up, with both abs and brake lights to accompany it. The issue is sporadic and when it happens the brakes are all but useless. Since having the vehicle in my possession I have not been able to replicate the issue, other than when in diagnostic mode via the paper clip method. When using this method I was able to retrieve codes 52,56,and 58.

    I’m hoping someone can’t point me in the direction to some literature for these code definitions, as well as the procedure to clear these codes after it is hopefully fixed, if someone has experience with this issue and could point me in the direction to start looking for a fix that would be appreciated as well.

    Note: the only code reader I have anymore is just a cheap one I keep with me, it does not pick up any codes, does anyone know why?

    Thanks, Jeremy
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Some diagnostic codes on a Prius don't get picked up by readers other than the Toyota Techstream software, just because the car has more computers in it to query for codes than most readers know about, and (especially in Gen 1) they are connected by several different comms buses. I'm kind of surprised you didn't get brake codes on a generic reader, but not hugely surprised. That's why there's the paper clip method, so you can start getting the basic codes anyway.

    But you need to mention which dash light was blinking each of those 52, 56, 58 codes; it makes a difference.

    Then, the place to look the codes up is in the Repair Manual (more info).
     
  3. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    Thanks for the reply. Yeah I kind of got the feeling that this year of hybrid was somewhat similar to the early 90’s cars electronics in the fact that the diagnostic systems where somewhat specific to the vehicle.

    Sorry I didn’t mention before, the only codes that I saw were all from the ABS light. I counted three times to ensure I was getting the right numbers. Then I tried to “clear” it by using the method recommended in a spotty YouTube video, (basically just turn the car on with the paper clip installed and pump the brake 8 times), at this point I was able to get the warning alarm to come on and observed a difference in pedal feel.


    ks for the
     
  4. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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  5. Brian in Tucson

    Brian in Tucson Active Member

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    When the ABS light is on and the alarm is squealing is the brake pedal hard and unresponsive? When my 02 did that, it turned out that the brake booster pump motor was failing or failed. From Toyota it's a $1000 assembly. I replaced mine with a used one from the wrecking yard. It's a real knuckle buster to get out and then back in. But it solved the problem for the past 2 years and 8 thousand miles. I know where there are a couple of junk yard ones, if you can't find one in Kansas, we might be able to work something out. As I remember, the codes cleared out by themselves when the brakes were fixed. Pump assembly is in the vicinity of the brake reservoir, look it up on google and you can get a picture of the assembly.
     
  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Have you had a chance to look up the 52, 56, and 58 you had blinking on your ABS light yet?

    52 and 56 are related to the ability of the pump and accumulator to build and hold brake pressure: 52 reports that the pump has been running a crazy long time (5 minutes!) without building the expected pressure, and 56 reports signals from the low-pressure switch that aren't what the ECU expects (56 has a detection condition with five alternative branches, covering most possible weird cases like the switch being stuck and therefore low and high pressure signals seen at the same time, or low pressure for an unreasonable time, a minute or more, etc.).

    There are seven and six pages in the manual, respectively, of troubleshooting steps to pin down the cause(s) of those codes, which could lead you to replacing the pump/accumulator assembly. (There's a member here, rlin78, who worked out a way it can be done without having to evacuate and recharge the air conditioning, but reported it took about ten hours that way.)

    But before getting too deep into that, there's that code 58, which is, umm, the low brake fluid level warning. That would be worth following up on, because that could certainly lead to inability to pump up fluid pressure and thus to the other two codes.

    If you're sure the fluid level hasn't been low, then it indicates a problem with the level switch or wiring.

    If it did get low enough ever for the pump to suck air, the system will have to be thoroughly bled, best using the utility in Techstream, because the air will be in the head-end components, not just down at the wheel cylinders where it's easy to let out.
     
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  7. Brian in Tucson

    Brian in Tucson Active Member

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    Nice response, Chap.
     
  8. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    I have not been able to find any solid source for codes a definitions. My job makes going to the library out of the question, and I’m a little hesitant to pay for anything since I can’t actually view what I’m paying for or verify that it’s actually the information I need. I’m relying on a phone to search for anything so maybe that’s my problem, but yeah I’ve just been looking for a week trying to get the definition of some blinking lights that came off the dash so I really appreciate you getting back to me.

    I’m not sure if the fluid level was ever low before she brought the car to me so I’ll have to ask on that then go from there. The lack of information readily available for these vehicles is insane. Thank you again.


     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The solid source is the repair manual for the car.

    If the 'anything' in question is the repair manual access at techinfo.toyota.com, it will be actually the information you need.

    I find the clunkiness of its register/login interface to be really the bigger annoyance than the $20 subscription rate; if one imagined paying other PriusChatters a going rate for help given for free, $20 would burn up pretty fast.
     
  10. Brian in Tucson

    Brian in Tucson Active Member

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    They wouldn't have the manuals at the library. You can look up the codes on the internet, in your search terms be sure to include "Prius" and the model year plus the code which will begin with a 'P'. I can understand your reluctance to invest in the manuals, they are a bit spendy. I think you can get both manuals for about $100, from Berkley Press. RockAuto has one on CD for about $20. Know nothing about it, but I assume that because Rock auto is offering, it is licensed from Toyota. It is in Acrobat format, could I suppose be transferred to a tablet. It's Microsoft and Apple compatible.
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Elektroingenieur put together a useful wiki page about various ways of getting access to the repair info. Much of it is available in some libraries (usually not in the form of the physical books, but in the form of online access through a service the library pays for).

    It is a bit spendy to find the Gen 1 physical books now (which are out of print at the official distributor) but the online access at techinfo.toyota.com is still live.
     
  12. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    Thank you for the responses, both of you. Sorry for the late reply.

    So I’ve been assured that the brake fluid level was never low enough to suck in air and is currently topped off so the code 58 is somewhat throwing my off. The other two codes have me leaning towards the booster pump as stated by Brian. Not sure why the car would be getting a code 58 too which worries me there’s possible and electrical issue in the system that could still persist after replacing the pump.

    Also can one of you verify the right way to clear codes?
    The method I found is “install paper clip, turn key to on position, pump brake pedal 8 times”, this method did not seem to work.
     
  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    That's the method that's in my notes. But if the condition the codes were reporting is still present ....
     
  14. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    Well yes, I have not replaced anything yet so I knew they would or some would come back, I just figured they would clear at least momentarily or in a way I could verify I did the clearing procedure correctly. I was hoping to recreate the symptoms the car was displaying before it was dropped off, as it sits now I’ve only been able to get it to act up in the diagnostic mode (paperclip installed).

    Chapman I’m not sure if anyone has told you today yet but you’re awesome. Car forums as a whole have seen much less traffic and in turn less updated info since the rise is social media and groups on those platforms, which is an absolute soup sandwich for anyone trying to get useful information. Just want you to know I really appreciate the responses.

    I’m going to source a used brake pump I think and then move forward from there. Unless you have a suggestion for something else to check before. Do any of the manuals contain procedures or values for testing individual components?
     
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  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Thanks! I'm of a certain age, where the appeal of social media and tied-in "walled garden" forums hasn't ever made much sense to me. I even think this forum is kind of a soup sandwich for finding information, compared to a well-used wiki, where something could just get written once and improved over time, instead of everything having to be endlessly repeated in new threads where somebody hasn't found the old ones.

    But for some reason the PriusChat crowd hasn't really caught the wiki bug, even though there is one here with some good information on it. (The XenForo wiki software doesn't win any awards in my book ... even the "table of contents" doesn't seem up to date, except right after somebody manually updates it.)

    As for other things to check, I can't think of much to add to the troubleshooting steps in the manual, where you would be checking for some basic wiring or connection issues, before replacing the accumulator assembly. I imagine it would be frustrating to to put in the work of swapping that and find the problem was still there, and then to find the real cause was something maybe less work to fix. But that would take going through the suggested steps.
     
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  16. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    Chapman can you tell me if this is in fact the correct part? My sister ordered it and from what I’ve seen in my searches most of these units come with another part attached to this that actually looks like an electric pump.
     

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  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    This should be a pic of the whole pump/accumulator assembly:

    [​IMG]

    It appears to me that what your sister ordered is the actuator assembly (it is so fn easy to mix up the words ac·tu·a·tor and ac·cum·ul·a·tor).

    [​IMG]

    Before you get too disappointed about that, it's still possible you have the part you need. When you have codes about the ac·cum·ul·a·tor not being able to reach/sustain pressure, and you're not leaving pools of brake fluid behind you, one of the things it can mean (if you hear the pump running) is an internal leak, where the fluid gets past a valve that's supposed to be normally closed, and returns to the reservoir. That can happen all in the ac·cum·ul·a·tor assembly, but in fact most of the valves in the system are in the ac·tu·a·tor assembly. So if you do have an internal leak, and you haven't yet pinpointed it to know which of the two assemblies it is in, then you still have a chance that the part you have is the one you'll end up needing. :)
     
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  18. Kettler21

    Kettler21 New Member

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    Damn it! And I suppose each of these is equally as extensive as far as labor time? I’m strapped on time, as I’m sure you can tell from the delay in my post (father in laws jeep had the transmission let go so I ended up replacing a the 45rfe in our driveway while waiting for my sister to order parts for her car). Does the actuator require the same software to bleed afterward or is this something that can be done using the paper clip method and manipulating the car to run the pump. Also it should be noted that I have not been able to replicated her original problem to this day. I’ve been paying to store the car since I last talked to you and today I went and got it to bring it home to install this part tomorrow. It functioned flawlessly the whole 5 mile drive. She did mention just recently that the car would only display issues upon start up, if it didn’t do it when the car started, then it wouldn’t do it no matter how long the car was operating. What are the chances that old brake fluid is causing the listed issues? I’m guessing it’s never been changed, not sure if a break down over time could trigger some sort of response from an overly sedative and outdated system.

    Note: brake fluid level is high, approx 3/4 over the max full line.
     
  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    The actuator might be a bit more straightforward as far as that goes. The cowl, inverter, and HVAC water pump are in the way, but you don't have to fuss with evacuating/recharging the A/C (or doing the ten hour rlin78 shuffle).

    I wouldn't undertake either job without Techstream if I could avoid it.

    The Gen 1 head-end bleed procedure does seem to be simpler than the later generations. There is only one solenoid in the actuator that you're using Techstream to command open (while holding the brake pedal down) to force the fluid to flush through the head end.

    Back when I had a Gen 1 and no Techstream, I always had in the back of my mind that if I absolutely had to, I could probably find the pins in the wiring diagram for that one solenoid and hot-wire my way through a bleed process if I absolutely had to. (Never more than 2 seconds of power to any ABS solenoid, with 20 seconds to cool in between.) But I never ended up absolutely having to, and it would take absolute necessity to make me go there.

    You'd already want Techstream for diagnosing problems like this, and future others, anyway, and it makes everything easier.

    By the way, the manual notes that those 4 connectors you see on the side of the actuator are actually not different shapes (the way nearby connectors nearly always are, so you can't goof reconnecting them!), so you have to note the wire colors when reconnecting.

    I'd probably keep the new part and the tools on the shelf a bit longer and see what more information can be gathered about the problem. The ECU monitors the operation of the pump quite extensively, so if the codes come back, Techstream should be able to give you a wealth of information (when you include the subcodes and freeze-frame data) about what's going on.

    One of the codes you had requires 5 minutes (!) of the pump running without achieving the target pressure (which normally takes but a second or so). If that code comes back, an easy observation would be: did anybody even hear the pump during those 5 minutes? Maybe you have an intermittent electrical supply issue. Sometimes, not always, that can be in the pump motor itself, if the carbon brushes are worn, and the motor happened to stop last time in a spot they don't contact well. If it isn't running, will it start if you bang something? Because of the monitoring I described in the link above, Techstream can point you to which part of the circuit to focus on.

    Not large, in my view; not zero. If there's a particle of grot sometimes preventing a valve from seating, possibly just the ritual of fluid changing would dislodge that as a side effect. So might also the ritual of head-end bleeding, without necessarily even opening any bleed ports.

    I would stay focused on getting a handle on what's happening.

    In another thread a week ago, I had 'explained' to me how a 'good mechanic' has 'refined instincts' on what to go tearing into before the facts are in, and so can avoid "car repair distractions" (apparently = diagnosis) in favor of "just getting it fixed with as little effort as possible" (= awesome if the person paying your time and materials isn't you).

    Situations like this reveal why I haven't come around to that way of thinking.
     
  20. sandy11246

    sandy11246 Member

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    Where are you located. I live in Wichita and have a laptop with Techstream. We own an ‘03. Maybe I can be of some help. Let me know.
     
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