Toyota admits being hurt by Tesla, gives tepid response

That's an interesting response from Toyota.
It doesn't surprise me that a lot of previous Toyota Prius Owners are becoming Tesla Owners. Prius owners, many of them, became Prius owners because they weren't afraid of owning something different, they wanted something efficient and that embraced new technology. Especially with early adopters of Prius, I think you had an audience that embraced a pioneering soul in that regard.

So today, many of that same audience now showing interest and embracing Tesla, doesn't really surprise me.

I have looked at Tesla as being a "Luxury" choice, or a high end choice, based mostly on just total cost. But it's interesting to me that Toyota and Lentz are viewing Tesla as a whole new segment a technology based segment.
I did not really look at it that way, but I think Lentz is right.

I have said, in other threads other posts, that part of the real challenge for Toyota and Prius is trying to recapture some of it's earlier "mojo". You can only be the "New" thing once, and only for a period of time.
Right now? Tesla is that new thing. If you can afford one, it has that mojo.

I suspect at some point it levels out. Tesla will get the sales they earn, for the vehicles they are. Prius will get the sales they earn. And once you start comparing the vehicles in terms of total cost and total vehicle ownership cost and experience, I think Prius competes very well.

Whether I'm right or wrong. It's interesting to me that Lentz believes Tesla has created a new segment, a technology based segment. I think I agree. And how Toyota responds specifically to that reality will be interesting. Mainstream Prius, use to be considered Toyota's "Technology Based" flagship.
But if you go head to head right now, with HSD and Hybrid vs. BEV or Tesla full electric, Tesla has the mojo of being the newer thing, the panache in the garage, and HSD and Hybrid is looking much more common and stale.

I still don't think this should be looked at as a head to head fight. I think it should be looked at as product and marketing evolution. It illuminates probably the most, that Toyota is paying attention and is vested into what is happening. Even as they watch a percentage of Prius Owners become Tesla Owners.

 

Phaseout of traditional vehicle production has been mentioned so many times over the years, it's difficult to not recognize that reference. Don't you remember any of the press releases about offering a hybrid model for every vehicle? As for the Supra, there will always be niche offerings.

The point is to move the fleet forward, which is exactly what the HSD system does. It standardizes motor & battery-pack while improving emissions (SULEV rating, as well as carbon reduction) across all mainstream offerings.

 

It is a clever approach, to stealthily convert ordinary car buyers into hybrid buyers. This all but eliminates the usual FUD:

• battery replacement cost
• hybrid premium
• poor performance (OK, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.)

Bob Wilson

• Pretty much every one of their ordinary cars is going to have an affordable hybrid.
• That Supra is Tesla bait ... looking forward to the YouTube head-to-head.

Bob Wilson

 

Supra is intended to be low volume, so isn't a Model 3 compare anyway. Model S will be redefined, as we have seen with the lower package choices being eliminated.

 

So the phase-out just means converting to other sources of power, other than - or in addition to ICE. Interesting .... calling it a phase out, while it still has an ICE ... Ok. So maybe that next Corolla & Camry & Supra & Prius will also have a platinum stack with hydrogen tank. Another "phase-out "

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Everyone who's telling you that Tesla is influencing the rest of the auto industry is completely wrong

Tesla influencing the rest of the auto industry is completely wrong - Business Insider

 

I doubt the Supra will get a hybrid or plug-in hybrid ... at least until after 'Tesla vs Supra' YouTubes finally shame the Japanese into doing the right thing.

As for the "fool cell" nonsense, Japan Inc. plans to show off their hydrogen skills for the Tokyo Olympics. Once the "Klang und Wut" is over, economics will do the right thing. Hopefully California will follow.

Bob Wilson

 

I drove a Tesla 3 recently and I was quite impressed on the short 15 minute drive. The car was really fast and different compared to my Prius. But the cost was $53000 for the AWD after about $10000 in rebates.

For those that want to spend $53000 on a car, it may be a worth while experience. Let's just hope none of these cars suddenly need service because I don't think there are enough service centers to service these cars. That experience will probably not be a pleasant one

 

I think Lentz is wrong on the whole new segment idea. Teslas do have some neat technology, but much of it is available in other luxury/premium, or even everyday/common, brands. The dynamic cruise, lane keep, and advanced safety systems in the 2019 RDX are 80% to 90% of Autopilot. For the rest car companies just need to get better infotainment and connectivity. The electric drive train isn't new. For many middle class kids, the first powered vehicle they got to drive was an EV.

Tesla's success is that of providing a BEV to pent up demand, that also has the support of reasonably fast chargers for long trips. They knew that for a car not using the established ICE refueling network would require them get into the 'energy' business themselves in order to sell their product. It is only a separate segment if you insist on classifying Non-ICE cars in their own groups.

Car hybridization is a fuzzy concept. Costs have dropped enough that every car could be a mild hybrid in the near future. The improved emissions are great. So can be the fuel use reduction, but it won't be enough to get us off the fossil fuel teat.

The Prime is a good PHEV, but it has flaws that hinder adoption, just like early full hybrid sedans did.

From the article, "Two of the biggest news stories to come out of the Detroit Auto Show were GM's decision to make Cadillac its lead electric brand and Ford's announcement that it's developing an all-electric version of its top-selling F-150 pickup truck."

Raise your hand if you think Tesla had no bearing on these decisions.

Granted, California's ZEV program is playing a big part in influence. It alone would not result in the degree of change we are seeing now. Just because Tesla wasn't mentioned doesn't mean the established companies weren't paying attention when all their models beat their segement competition upon release.

"What Tesla boosters seem to miss is that electrification is trivially easy for big car companies."

I'm aware of that, and I am pretty sure the majority of boosters are too. What this author appears to miss, and what those following hybrids know, is that you get a better car when the platform is dedicated for the drivetrain, and platforms take time and money to develop. Throwing together something like the Focus Electric is quick and easy, but you don't get a compelling product.

 

I misquoted.
Within the article what Lentz says is new category of a technology driven product.

I think that's fair even if that's a chimerical statement.

Regardless of how much real "new" technology may or may not exist in a Tesla, being a BEV in of itself gives it that "Panache". I think if you polled the average American on the street and asked them what commercially available vehicle represented the cutting edge, most would say Tesla.

As you pointed out, there have been and are other BEV options. But to Tesla's credit, I think what they have done, is create a product that has expanded the consciousness of what a BEV can be.

Is this a "New Segment"? Well if nobody is really joining you on the battlefield, I suppose you can't call it a war.
But I think it is interesting that Tesla has at least planted the seeds, that what is expected of an electric vehicle is as close to no compromise as possible.

In some ways I look at this as a riptide over the centuries.
As a battle between technologies in transportation is really not new. In the 1800's you had quite a battle between Steam, Electric, and Gasoline.
By many accounts, Electric appeared to have an early advantage, until the discovery and adoption of fossil fuels in mass happened.

So in some ways, we're moving forward by looking back.

 

1. Toyota Newsroom publishes their sales each month including breaking out hybrids. Even you can read it.
2. Toyota claims the Supra does 0-60 in +4 sec. There are stock Teslas that beat that time which suggests you didn’t know.

I wish we could find a better Tesla advocate but then compared to you, @hill is exactly that.

Bob Wilson

 

That's no excuse to outright dismiss content, without even bothering to provide any reasoning.