Featured Cadillac, the latest Tesla killer

If the goal is to replace traditional vehicles with electrified choices, and that means full hybrid or better, and that does not require a plug, how do we measure that Toyota is a leader? Shouldn’t fleet or segment mpg averages tell the story?

 

You completely missed the point. That goal is one of many stages leading away from vehicles of the past, replacing them with *CLEAN* and efficient choices right away.

The reduction of smog-related emissions has nothing to do with MPG either. Don't forget that much of our electricity is derived from dirty sources. That's why getting everyone to switch to a vehicle with at least a SULEV emission rating provides so much of an impact to the air-quality problems we face.

The benefit of carbon emissions also being greatly reduced doesn't require an EV. Achieving that goal can be from a plug-in hybrid. My driving is 80% electricity. The rest is with SULEV rated emissions. That's a dramatic improvement from an affordable offering.

It starts with that first goal, getting people to abandon traditional vehicles.

 

But apparently it will take the path you want it to?

Listen John, I hope Toyota can convert every ICE driver that isn’t comfortable switching to EV, into a hybrid driver.
So far, they have had a very tough time of it, stalling out around a 4% market share,
EVs are looking at surpassing hybrid market share in the US next year.
I hope Toyota continues to make pure hybrids for those for whom pure hybrids work best.
But I would also like to see them take their knowhow, engineering expertise and reputation for reliability and push EVs a little harder.

 

I now have 6-Sigma certification, adding to my many years of learning of how the automotive market works. So, it's not my want, it's what my research tells me about change. Like it or not, mainstream consumers are fickle, poorly informed, and often rank emotion higher than logic. So, no matter how you present engineering marvel, they just plain will not care. That's what the overall failure of Volt taught us.

EVs surpassing the hybrid market this year doesn't tell us anything about true demand. Appealing to early-adopters with tax-credits is just low-hanging fruit. The far more difficult challenge is what comes following that stage. You can't actually measure hybrid demand anyway. There were not any competitive offerings until very recently. With the market shifting heavily in favor of SUV purchases, measure against the appeal of a hatchback or sedan doesn't make any sense.

You will be continue to be disappointed with Toyota's approach. Get over it already! How many times must you be told their formula to success is very different from what you want? The business of change for them is to move the masses with a slow unrelenting push. The drama you hope for won't happen. That's not the way they operate.

 

So where are the metrics? We shouldn’t believe the numbers? World and U.S. audiences are the wrong audiences?

 

Each automaker's own fleet, both per market and global.

 

And Toyota’s rankings in these categories?

 

Absolutely.some people will redefine down everything down. I really do not understand how a company that is so far behind is considered ahead by anyone. Remember a lot more people were thinking diesel was the answer ;-) I posted the idiocracy of fuel cells from 2015, but they have been pushed for much longer and are an absolute fail when it comes to private light vehicles.

Its going well in Japan. There are lots of markets.

It has failed in China the biggest car market in the world, and North america the second biggest market.

Here is toyota's break out of us this year. December 2018 Sales Chart | Toyota
They broke out the prius liftback, prius c, prius v, prime, rav4 hybrid, lexus rx hybrid, and lexus nx hybrid. All the toyota's other than the prime lost market share, the lexus SUVs gained.

Together they total 160,432 down 6% from last year continuing a long trend downward of 35% from 2013 (its worse if you exclude the nx hybrid and rav4 hybrid that didn't exist back then or include the highlander hybrid and camry hybrid and es hybird which toyota has not shown figures for this year yet or include the ct hybrid from that year that is discontinued). No share has fallen even more than that 35% and it looks to continue down.

Tesla on the other hand this year in the US sold 191,627 bevs. That is likely just slightly higher than all the toyota and lexus hybrids and plug-ins and fuel cell vehicles sold in the US this year. Tesla didn't even make a car when the prius or lexus rx hybrid or camry hybrid came out.

Looking to china toyota looks even worse when it comes to hybrids and plug-ins compared to the market. Europe it appears to be growing from a very low rate and far behind.

 

What about their own fleet? I would love to hear what actual metrics you use to judge an auto company.
So, are you measuring fleet size?
Fleet efficiency?
Something else entirely?

Tesla is doing a better job appealing to the masses, they just aren't priced low enough for the masses to take advantage of their offerings. Their cars are fun to drive, that is what appeals to the masses. This is why Tesla is expanding the luxury car market. People that normally would not spend that much on a car, are spending that much on a car.
It is why the Camry in recent years has been made more "sporty", to appeal to more people.

 

well before tackling China, some will take on the European field.
Massive Tesla Model 3 shipment spotted ahead of first oversea deliveries - Electrek
The US invasion of Europe begins D-Day, ev Style

what kind of marketing strategy would it be to sell product at a smaller profit margin when you still can't yet even fulfill your higher-priced big margin ticket items. Let the Econo version people whine. You 1st have to make money - pay your bills, before you can make less money.
.

 

Cadillac Shows Off First Fully Electric Crossover On New Platform

 

I was just going to post that, looks surprisingly similar to a very old concept from years back.

Also looks expensive, considering the Ipace is selling more copies than expected perhaps an unfortunate consequence is that EVs are moving upscale to sell.

 

Oh I concur completely. Tesla has no gas guzzling trucks or huge SUVs to make up for selling smaller cars at a loss.
My comment was similar to "wouldn't it be nice if I could fly". I know that it isn't happening soon, and why it isn't happening soon. I just wish it weren't so.

Nothing unfortunate about it. New technology virtually always follows this path. The first look is expensive and has some faults. Later renditions are improved, and as more sell, the price comes down.
The more companies that jump in, the faster we will see improvements, and prices coming down.

While the EV SUV market is ripe for the picking right now, the market segment I am most looking forward to is the EV Pickup trucks

 

Does anyone know why John is such a Toyota worshiper? Maybe if I knew the background I'd cut him a little more slack. Always best to walk a mile in someone's shoes before coming to any conclusion.
That being said, I'm one of the biggest Tesla fanboys there is, but yet I'm not afraid to call them out when something isn't right. Maybe if John was willing to acknowledge some errors instead of thinking they are flawless we might have a little more productive conversations in these Toyota threads.

 

he works for toyota. haven't you seen the many references to 'we'?

 

cgi is an amazing thing

 

John has lived through, and been active here since the peak of the Prius FUD.
I don’t know if he simply got stuck in an uber defensive mode back then, or if it is something else.

 

but he for sure works for Toyota?