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Featured Toyota Won’t Make A Proper EV Because Dealers Say It Won’t Sell

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Ashlem, Dec 7, 2018.

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  1. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #161 El Dobro, Dec 16, 2018
  2. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace 2025 Camry XLE FWD

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    Are you sure that's a lady, or is that @Tideland Prius? :D I believe he/she has a Smart car.
     
    #162 Prodigyplace, Dec 16, 2018
  3. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace 2025 Camry XLE FWD

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    Unfortunately. the "Dealer Mafia" has made direct sales illegal in many states.
     
    #163 Prodigyplace, Dec 16, 2018
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    too hypothetical, because there is no money to be made on electric cars. if there were, both toyota and their dealers would be interested.

    follow the money, it's all about the money
     
    #164 bisco, Dec 16, 2018
  5. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace 2025 Camry XLE FWD

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    #165 Prodigyplace, Dec 16, 2018
  6. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    While driving home in my Spark EV Friday night, I took a quick photo of this car carrier, which was loaded with Teslas. I would imagine it was headed towards their staging area, which is a few blocks up. On the road behind me is the Tesla delivery/repair facility. From what I see every day, Tesla looks like it's doing quite well. :D

    IMG_20181214_163509689.jpg
     
    #166 El Dobro, Dec 16, 2018
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The Union of Concerned Scientists has studies(posted here multiple times) showing that plug ins produce far less CO2 emissions than ICE cars. Even on coal heavy grids, they are the equivalent of 40+mpg cars, and going into 3 figures on cleaner grids in the country.

    The market of households that own more than one car that can charge at home hasn't even been saturated yet. Which leaves time for addressing those concerns.

    Turbines, like the ICE in a car, don't run at peak efficiency with every load.

    Then the steam plants used for base load risk damage on start up and shut down, do they always produce a base amount of steam, even if the turbines aren't engaged. What happens in Texas is that coal is used over available wind during lull times for that reason.

    Well, CAFE is based on the fleet of the manufacturer, not brand, so the laws protecting independent dealers are likely set up the same way. Leaving the answer no. Even if Toyota could do this, it would still antagonize their dealer network. Tesla had antagonize others' dealer networks.
     
    #167 Trollbait, Dec 16, 2018
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  8. Duffer

    Duffer Member

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    The Dealers have thus far sold me 2 Prius cars, I believe that when the time comes for a BEv, which my next vehicle will be BEv, they can talk me into a Toyota.
     
    #168 Duffer, Dec 16, 2018
  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i wonder if anyone could measure the amount of energy it takes to move fossil fuels around the world.
     
    #169 bisco, Dec 16, 2018
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    perhaps i was too vague, not enough money. but then again, tesla's paper profit came at a cost legacy manufacturers and dealers are not interested in dealing with.

    and tesla has no high profit center like gasser trucks and suv's.
     
    #170 bisco, Dec 16, 2018
  11. Ashlem

    Ashlem Senior Member

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    Toyota is building EV's. But it's for the Chinese market, because their government is demanding more EV's be built

    Exclusive: Toyota plans to roll into China's EV market in GAC Motor vehicle | Reuters

    The Union of Concerned Scientists has released an updated map of the US energy grid which shows the mpg equivalent that an EV using grid power from a power company would emit. So obviously a coal plant powered EV is a lot dirtier than one powered by say, hydroelectric or wind power. But even then, it's still cleaner than most gas powered cars

    The beauty of EV's is that as the grid cleans up, their emissions gets cleaner too. A gas car will always pollute no matter where its fuel source is obtained.

    And if you're going to argue the "wells to wheels" angle, consider that some of the oil used in the US is obtained from fracking, which pollutes local groundwater and causes lots of earthquakes. Oklahoma wasn't a hotbed of earthquake activity until fracking became a thing. Tar sands in Canada are also pretty devastating to the environment, even if they do clean it up later. Who doesn't want to drink tap water you can light on fire?

    As for foreign sources, a lot of it is from unstable regions of the world that requires heavy US military presence, which is an extra hidden cost to taxpayers since I don't see oil companies or OPEC footing the bill to station our troops in hot spots in the Middle East.

    There's also the transportation costs, as moving the oil around via rail, pipes, ships, trains, and trucks isn't free, and if one of them causes a spill or leak, it's usually big news.

    Then there's refining the oil itself into gas. They use that same "dirty coal" that EV critics argue with, but somehow this always gets overlooked in their comments.

    And finally, there's more transportation costs to the gas station, where the gas then pollutes one more time as its burned inefficiently in a gas engine and adds pollution to the local environment.

    I have no illusions that my Chevy Volt and the solar panels on my roof doesn't have environmental costs. But I'm also not polluting the air when I'm driving on electric and charging it up when the sun is out. And even if I have to use my power company's coal power, at least it's sourced from American mines.

    Yes, it has a gas engine, but I don't use it much either when just going to work and back, which is 95% of my driving. But it comes in handy when I need to go longer distances or I just simply forgot to plug in the previous day.

    Otherwise I'd need a 2nd car, which would add to the costs you mentioned, not to mention needing insurance and maintenance on said car.

    vehicles-m-emissions-map-with-notes2.jpg

    Your post here suggests that everyone will immediately go out and buy an EV tomorrow. As awesome as that would be, it's not reality, and the transition from gas car to EV's will happen slowly, not overnight.

    The power companies can adjust their power to accommodate for more demand due to EV presence. Many of them already offer reduced rates for charging EV's at night, when there's traditionally low demand for power since most people are sleeping and it's usually cooler as well, meaning less a/c usage. So this gives them a great excuse to not have to lower their output too much, and do something with the otherwise wasted electricity.

    They can always build more power plants if needed. And with the rise of solar panels and wind power, those can also help supplement the grid as needed, with batteries storing up excess generated power to use at night or on cloudy, windless days.

    As for people who don't own a garage, public charging infrastructure will slowly start to show up as more people demand them. They will start to show up in places such as parking lots in apartment complexes, work places, and shopping centers as the costs drop, more EV's show up, and charging speeds improve. This also won't happen overnight, but when there's enough demand, they will build them.

    Note that I'm not totally anti-oil. It still has a lot of good uses. I'm just starting to think that burning it in an engine probably isn't the best use for it.
     
    #171 Ashlem, Dec 16, 2018
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  12. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I'm sure every organization participating in the petro market has a pretty good idea what they're spending to fuel their pipeline pumps, ocean tankers, rail freight fees and highway tanker trucks.

    No clue if any of them share it, or if anyone is aggregating it and then sharing or selling the report.
     
    #172 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Dec 16, 2018
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  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    well ~ the anti EV crowd seems more interested in concocting a formula that proves (states like) coal burning Virginia electricity (where plugins are fewer anyway) means that EV's are still dirty polluters. Yet - the proponents of such nonsense never have any comments about the coal-burning electricity used to make a Refinery run.

    .
     
    #173 hill, Dec 16, 2018
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  14. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    Wouldn't Toyota need to build BEV's first for that to happen? Good luck with that. My wife and I looked at Model 3's last week. She loved them. I'm waiting for the Y, if it doesn't have gull wing doors.
     
    #174 DavidA, Dec 17, 2018
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  15. t_newt

    t_newt Active Member

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    Maybe BEVs are more akin to -your- robot floor cleaner. My robot floor cleaner is gasoline powered. It is noisy as heck and fills the room with smoke, but boy does it clean the room!
     
    #175 t_newt, Dec 17, 2018
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  16. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace 2025 Camry XLE FWD

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    Yup, even the people would leave :LOL: :ROFLMAO:
     
    #176 Prodigyplace, Dec 17, 2018
  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    i've seen them . . .



    .
     
    #177 hill, Dec 17, 2018
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The S and X probably have the profits of a pick up, and the 3 likely makes more than the non-luxury brand equivalent.
     
    #178 Trollbait, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    no doubt. now compare the sales numbers
     
    #179 bisco, Dec 17, 2018
  20. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    This is the reason I think Toyota is running out of time.
    Tesla sales numbers are small in comparison. This year should be about a quarter million. But they are ramping up quickly. That may well double in two years (world-wide).

    I always believed EVs would surpass the hybrid market share. But I didn't think it would take Toyota so long to hop on the EV bandwagon.
     
    #180 Zythryn, Dec 17, 2018
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