Ethanol Restrictions Lifted

Not old news, but "the usual suspects" will probably want it moved to the kindergarten.

It's been debated many, many, many times in the more 'moderate' portions of this forum, but one unexpected benefit for the temperance movement is that sometimes DE-regulation can be a good thing.

Example:
Allowing states (like my beloved Indiana) NOT to have alky in their fuel.

YMMV

 

There is a prior thread:
E15 May be Coming to a station near you | PriusChat

So this means Trump approved it. Here are some perspectives...

BIOFUELS:
• President Trump will allow for year-round sales of gasoline with 15 percent ethanol, setting him “firmly on the side of corn growers.” (Radio Iowa)
• An Iowa researcher is skeptical about any immediate impact from Trump’s decision and whether fuel retailers will invest in ethanol pumping infrastructure. (Cedar Rapids Gazette)

 

Check the owner's manual; it will state what percentage of ethanol says is safe for your car.

A short summary of the issue. The law that instituted the ethanol mandated set the total volume to be mixed into the nation's gasoline supply instead of a ratio of amount to the amount of gas being actually used. So when gasoline use actually dropped, overall percentage of ethanol to be used in gas increased. On top of that, there wasn't much government support in increasing the number of E85 stations so flex fuel cars could actually get it.

So the law was mandating more ethanol in the fuel supply than could be met by staying at E10 and the current fleet of flex fuel cars used in E85. That had the ethanol producers pushing to make E15 the minimum.

In my experience, ethanol in gas just means small engines actually need to be maintained better than what most are use to, which is far from what the manufacturer recommends. My mower with B&S engine is now 17 years old, and its restarting difficulty stems from a dirty air filter.

Can't stay much about how much the efficiency drop is, because E10 was the only thing available since I kept real track of it.

 

That's a bit questionable....wonder why they say that?

 

I've been running 15% ethanol since the 3rd fill-up in my fuelly stats.

Orange C (Toyota Prius C) | Fuelly

You'll notice a wild swing in the mileage for the first couple tanks. I'm not sure what caused those initial wild swings as my driving never changed. But it has leveled out now and hovers just above 53 mpg. My average before using 15% was between 53 & 55. So yeah, I've seen a slight drop, but it's minimal and to me worth the 6-10 cents cheaper a gallon.

 

I'm thinking that @bwilson4web did a deep dive on this issue, but I do not remember seeing an x-y representing the cost in MPG.

As far as Priuses being 'certified' for E15, this surprises me not in the least.
Priuses are built abroad and it's more or less a 'world' car.
They even put the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car so that they can sell them in parts of the world where people drive on the wrong side of the road.

I can report that I personally do not observe very much of a delta between E0 and E10, and I would expect that the energy density (-3% for E10?) might begin to express itself in real-world driving at 15% hooch....as in you would not need to use a set of calipers and a laboratory grade driving course to notice a difference.
One thing is for dead-bang certain.
If the price delta is 6-10 centavos per gallon, then there's a 100-percent chance that people will be buying corn.

If we presume that there's a verifiable 5% decline in MPG (2MPG more or less) where's the break-away cost?
I just paid $2.55 per....up recently from $2.38 because of market forces, but some people live behind the curtain and pay more than $3.

Anybody want to take a stab at the math?
I can do it, but I like to witness changes in outcomes based on different presumptions......

 

Did you go from 'pure' gasoline to E15?

Ethanol is like biodiesel in that it is a better fuel system cleaner than the petro fuel. This could cause problems in older engines as the years of crud coming loose clog things.

So that cleaning action when switching to ethanol could be the cause of the swings, and/or the car's computer adjusting to the different mix.

I did similar math when trying premium(all was E10) in the Sonic. In rough numbers, the 2mpg increase in a car that averaged 37mpg broke even in terms of price per mile when the cost difference was 25 cents. At the time, regular was around $2.40, and premium was usually 40 cents more.

E15 comes here, I expect to not have the choice of using it or not.

 

Hmmmmm.....that's interesting.
I wonder why?
Is it a state regulation thing or a marketing thing?

....inversion layer?

 

My Volt gets better MPGs on e15, (summer months) This is over 2 years of data.
The 88 octane fuel is also over 20 cents a gallon less than regular 87 where I buy it.

my only guess is because of the slightly higher octane which the Volt likes gives me a couple extra MPGs

 

Major metropolitan areas, and some states, ethanol free is simply not available; it is E10 or push. Some of is state(E10 only in NJ), and some of it is EPA. The closest station pumping ethanol free gas to me is an hour out of the way. So if E15 comes here, it could be mandated as the minimum.

That is my guess too. Note that when mixing E10, refineries can make the regular gas lower octane now, so that it is 87 with the alcohol.

 

Went from E10 to E15. "Pure" gasoline isn't even available around here unless you drive to a boat dock or marina. That's a good 60 miles away for me. I have ran it before - but even with "pure" gasoline, the increase in mpg's was negligible. (1 tank though - so hard to say for sure) E15 only recently became widespread around here when all the local gas stations had to install new pumps that would utilize the chip on peoples debit/credit cards. Up until then, E15 was always out there by the diesel pump. Now it's on all the pumps.

As for the problems in older engines. There is a sticker on each pump which is pretty hard to miss - warning you not to put it into a vehicle older than 2001 and that doing so is a violation of Federal law and will damage your vehicle.

You mentioned in a later post that refineries can mix it at 87 octane? I've never seen E15 at 87 octane - ever. It's always been 88 for as long as I can remember.

 

A total contribution to global warming, destruction to the natural environment to subsidize corn farmers. Why does one think that one of the first presidential primaries is in Iowa.

It is well known that Methanol (wood alcohol) is the better less costly option converted from methane (natural gas) which can be had from garbage dumps. Ancient dumps from Roman times is still producing it. The "cleanest" use of coal would be conversion to methanol.

Prior to 2000, nearly all alcohol blended fuels were made with gasoline and methanol. It was called Gasohol in California. Ford developed many vehicles using it, until politicians advocated ethanol that is more expensive to make than gasoline.

China prohibits making vehicle fuels from food stuffs.

The price of non-ethanol gas is higher, because it is an artificial marketing too.

 

no ethanol free around here either, afaik

87 is around $2.75 at best. not that i care, i'm running mostly on electrons. haven't filled up since may

 

I'll sponsor you for a free membership to the political sub-forum if you really think you want that, but I was hoping for some real data for a cost average.
The Meth-heads (IMHO) always jigger the numbers a little bit when the subject of E>1 comes up but strangely enough big earl hasn't chosen to capitalize on this "better less costly option" and captured methane from all manner of human waste just never seems to be able to scale up.
Clean coal is like "clean diesel."

They struggle furiously to be "as clean as x"

ah.....YMMV