Use of 0w20 Motor Oil In Very Warm Climates

Have you ever looked at using a premium oil filter with a synthetic "glass" media, especially on your classic cars? Donaldson, some AC Delco, Amsoil EAO, and Royal Purple make these filters using this wonderful media which I believe Donaldson licenses to the others. My older car, my Grand National was known for having one of the worst lubrication setups.... The pump is located in the front cover, driven off the cam so it spins at half engine speed, the gears are steel while the housing is aluminum, oil first travels to the valley and takes care of the lifters before taking care of the bottom end, which sucks but I guess was ok when it made 110hp in the 70s, not so much with 602hp and even more torque at the wheels, etc. The Buick V6 always had those problems and idle pressure was always low, even before it was turbocharged, but.... when they threw the turbo on them, creating a need for more volume, it was not uncommon for the oil pressure dummy light to come on at hot idle in a new car with a healthy engine. GM's solution was to retrofit with a sending unit that turns the light on at 3psi instead of 7psi instead of fixing the oiling system or at least a better pump lol.

I was always faced with setting the oil pump up (back plate clearance to gears) tighter for better hot idle pressure but not so tight that it would literally blow the filter off the car on a cold start/high idle. The biggest problem was the different expansion rates of the steel gears with aluminum housing. The clearances opened up dramatically as it got hot. I tried running the coolant at 150F all the time since there's a passage near the pump, enlarging the pressure relief valve and passages, etc. Still would blow filters off the engine if I set it up to idle with at least 20psi. Of note, I drove 100k miles with 0-5psi hot idle pressure back when it was going 11.20s and never had an oil related issue so 20psi was being a little greedy and unnecessary. Bringing up idle speed resulted in people thinking I was hiding a hot cam and I prided myself on running a stock longblock so pride got in the way there but I was young.

So FINALLY to get to my point..... I ended up trying one of these new-at-the-time filters. They claimed better flow AND better filtration. I was more than a little skeptical until I saw the media under a microscope. The pores were more uniform in size and shape, considerably smaller pore size than any cellulose filter media I've seen, but, there were several times more pores in the synthetic media. Far less "dead space" between the pores. Where there might be a good bit of space between pores taken up by cellulose fibers on the regular filters, the "glass" media under magnification made it obvious how you could get both better flow and filtration with the same area of media.

The other benefits of the premium filter, at least the RP one, is a thicker canister, metal end plates (not cardboard), a silicone anti drainback valve that seals very well when new and continues to seal well as the miles rack up. This was especially important on my particular turbo engine as it was prone to rattle upon startup (rod bearings) for a second or so with the regular filters letting the oil drain back into the pan and usually zero rattle with the RP filters. Ironically, thicker oils decreased this rattle upon startup unless temps got into the upper 30s. They have an O-ring that seems to seal up better, metal backed media, and a higher media bypass psi since the media can withstand more differential pressure before self destructing.

I was thinking of your classic cars with the 2yr oil changes (I'm sure mileage is low though). While cellulose tends to swell and increase pore size as the oil collects condensation (usually worse in cars that aren't driven much and especially with carburetors), the synthetic media is unaffected by water. The cold starts and the typically but not always higher cold idle speed of the older cars can benefit from a higher flowing media for the first few minutes. Even if it's not extreme like mine blowing filters off, it's less likely to open the internal media bypass and flow unfiltered oil through the engine for a while. While $16 is a lot for a filter, for those of us that change the filters once every year or two, it's not a big deal for the insurance it provides. I've had mine destroy the filter internally and partially suck up some of the media and cardboard end cap into the pump on a Fram filter which was all I could afford when I was 17-18. I went to remove the filter and after unscrewing it I had to pull pretty hard to get it off due to cardboard and media stuck in the filter and oil pump.

Sorry for the preachy long post. I just thought I would suggest a premium filter with the good media for classic cars and I got carried away as always. I'm currently looking around for a "synthetic" media cartridge for the Prius now. I will get shot for this but right now, I'm doing 20,000-25,000 mile OCIs but that's 99.9% highway and that's only 4-5 months for me. I would feel better with the better media and materials since if it begins to fail, I could potentially go 20,000 miles and not know.

Oh, to bring it somewhat back on target, I 90% agree with your statement that "The Prius is not stressing out the oil .. anything is fine. Oil matters at the extremes .. no extremes with the Prius". Oil definitely matters MORE at the extremes, whether it's temperature extremes or load/rpm extremes, even mileage interval extremes to a degree. What I've personally witnessed is on cars like the Prius which like you said don't stress the oil, if you use even a little common sense regarding weight and add pack, it's going to go practically forever and will likely be sitting in a junkyard one day with a salvageable engine..... but, I've regularly seen less wear with the "good" oils with higher HTHSv, high VI, and robust add packs even in cars like the Prius. The difference between good and not so good oil is much, much less in a car like the Prius regarding wear, but it's there. And to keep it honest, these teardowns were obviously not under controlled conditions, just general trends I noticed. You have to decide how obsessed you are. I have issues as I'm sure everyone can tell by now and I would likely use Redline in it even if I were changing it every 5k and didn't have the 12 mile near full throttle battle every day with 100+ ambient temps. Totally not necessary and I would have problems recommending it in a car like this for easy use without a disclaimer but I did have to point out that in my experience I've seen the small difference in rod bearing and ring wear and surprisingly, ring land wear over a couple different engine families. Now when talking cleanliness, regardless of use, there's no comparison to an ester base with a good add pack.

Damn, I was going to stop typing a few paragraphs ago and still going but it's a slow day at work.... So cleanliness.... The one area that I can literally pick out that an ester oil was used is the ring land area, the whole engine is usually near spotless but between the first and second and second and oil control rings is where the big, consistent improvements are. The very top ring land, the side of the crown of the piston (?) deposits seem to be from combustion as methanol/water injection got rid of those deposits regardless of oil used as it did the whole combustion chamber(s). This hot area that causes the coking is responsible for the ring sticking and by sticking I include sealing but not rotating. So while the good PAO grp IV oils typically are less likely to leave deposits behind, when they do get hot enough to leave deposits, the deposits are usually worse, more damaging than the cheaper grp III oils. What I've seen very consistently is the ring land area of an engine that used an ester base for most of it's life usually had NOTHING in this area which was previously unheard of, at least to me. Even with my turbo car cramming nearly 3 atmospheres worth of pressure into the cylinders causing in addition to lots of cylinder pressure, lots of heat, and my pistons after 30k were practically new looking and the very first time I pulled one of these engines apart on this oil, it had barely a slight tan tint to the aluminum. Very impressive oil. I only pulled it apart because it was nearing mid 10s at that point on a mostly stock bottom end and I got scared and had to have a look around. At this point, most will say this doesn't apply to a Prius but I believe (guess?) it still applies to the Prius because even with less peak heat in this area, with enough time, deposits will exist, it will just take longer. I hope the mods around here are nice, I think I'm way off topic again, and I will gladly delete some or all of this post. Please forgive, I type a little and go to a meeting. Then type some more and start falling asleep so I get some coffee. Repeat 2-3x and I know continuity is nonexistent.

But yeah, the cheapest correct spec oil and filter, especially with the viscosity tailored to your ambient and driving conditions will likely result in an engine that outlasts the car.

 

BuickGN,
are you the famous BuickGN from BITOG?
Driving a Prius?
What a shocker!
You probably do know that toyota has problems with deposits forming in rings leading to stuck oil control rings and oil consumption. The 1.8L prius engine seems to be affected at 100,000+ miles. Maybe because of low tension rings?
You comments re: esters in oils are interesting; however, I understand this is proprietary info. How do we know even Redline uses them and not group III base like everyone else?

 

Read the label:

 

Checkmate.

 

0w-20 has it also. Will never switch to another engine oil brand on my Prius.

 

Never is a big word.

I bet if it starts consuming oil a bit, you might switch out.

 

Don't jinx it now

 

what intervals do you guys do with redline oils and how much are they these days? Maybe it's somewhat cost effective if I stretch the OCI?
although i doubt it'll beat the free or $1/qt synthetic oils I get from rebates and clearances. I still have enough 0W20 and 5W20 Magnatec for 2 more oil changes and just changed one, so I'm good for 3 more years (I do it once a year, OCI ranging from 9,000-12,000 miles).

 

Wrong oils! What makes 0-20 the right oil, when in other parts of the world 0-20 is not used in the same cars?

 

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM47668U/pdf/OM47668U.pdf
Page 560

You are free to ignore that admonition, but do not expect warranty repair after willfully ignoring the manufactures specification.

(you do not live in other parts of the world, their oil differs even if the cars don't.)

 

But WHY does the oil viscosity requirements and options differ in other parts of the world. Same car as the U.S., and same engine, correct? Is it due to more extreme weather/heat conditions in Asia and Europe?

Or are we in the U.S. just stuck with 0W-20 because of the politicians "CAFE" standards....?

 

In the case of oil, CAFE means more than eating .

But if you use it long enough, you’re prius will get an appetite .

 

I'm pretty much sold on using 5W-30 from now on. (I mistakenly said 0W-30 earlier.) Red Line sounds good, or at least Mobil 1 5W-30. It worked very well in all my previous vehicles.

 

Redline will run 2x the cost of Mobil one.

I’m clubbing up to 0w-40 after being at 5w-30.

Just another option in the sea of oil.

 

Yes, I've been seeing Red Line online for $11.95 per Qt. Or $59.75 for a 5-quart pack. I'm trying Mobil 1 5W-30 first, since I already bought it and had it put in. Is my ICE quieter? Or is that just another placebo effect.....

 

For someone with a bit of seasoning, you hear a lot of things .

I just turn the radio up.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

 

Wait for the ebay $15 off of any $75 purchase coupon. That's how I got my redline deal; individual 8-quart packs, same price as 1 gal + 1 quart w/o coupon.

 

I run redline 0w-20, ice is louder though. Because I floor it knowing redline protects better in higher engine temp *smiley face with devils horn gesture and tongue sticking out*

 

I know Europe gets much better motor oil than we do in North America. I know Australia is hotter than North America. (Most Australians never see snow)

European Oils - Auto Service World
USA and Canadian oils don't usually meet European specs, harming engines
Euro spec oils vs North American | European and Import Motor Oils | Bob Is The Oil Guy

 

Well not exactly. WHile Europe can have harder to meet specs and just more specs period, I’ve never heard of them having anything we dont have, not of any significance. BITOGers might get all weird about the green cap vs Gold(?) cap “German” Castrol and subtle differences here and there but not if any importance. Europe tends to have specs based around extended drain interval and different emissions requirements. They do tend to be more specific in their ratings. The one thing I like is how some spec a minimum HTHS over there. This is awesome IMO because HTHS should be heavily considered when choosing an oil , especially in direct injection turbo cars and has more to do with engine wear than the better known Kv. Knowing this will allow people like me to not use straight Redline 0w40 in the Prius even though it’s run very hard for extended periods, 99.9% freeway, and ambient temps are very hot in the summer and rarely see freezing. All valid reasons to safely use a 0w40. However, RL 5w30 HTHSv is 3.7. Higher than Mobil One 0w40 and most 40 at oils. When this 5w30 is stressed out, it will flat out protect from wear better (as in keeping two moving surfaces separated)than the higher Kv M1 0w40 because it literally will have a higher working viscosity once very hot and under lots of pressure. The Kv that 99% of us use to choose the weight better describes how the oil behaves when you pour it from the bottle to the engine, startup, and very light loads and lower temps but light and low are relative. A connecting rod journal bearing can exert huge amounts of pressure on the oil wedge under even light load.

But back on topic, the Europeans typically drive harder and I believe they have “tighter” specs in a lot of cases tailored to making sure wear is never an issue (in addition the the emissions extended OCIs.

Think about the ICE trends at this moment and what some of the specs are designed to protect... We now have tiny bone stock 2.0l 4 cylinders making 260lbs+ of torque at only 1,250rpm. The 5 series one of these engines goes in is around 4,000 lbs so the engine’s average load is considerably higher than the same setup in a 3,100lb car like my GN or a 3,300lb 3 series or Prius. Peak loads are the same, sure, but running under a higher load over more time means more wear. That torque figure is double what a typical 7.4l big block of the 60s made at the same rpm and that load is spread over only 4 cylinders, 4 rod journal bearings. That’s a TON of cylinder pressure but just as important is the extremely low rpm this torque is made at. Journal bearings typically handle more pressure (cylinder pressure creates the force on the crankshaft, torque; create the same cylinder pressures at 5,000rpm and you’re creating it 4x as often for a given period of time which results in more hp at 5,000 vs 1,250rpm with the same torque, I think that’s the easiest way to explain torque over time). But back on topic, even if BMW ( I use this example because I owned a New one back in ‘14 and I’m familiar with how power came on) maybe uses a slightly harder bearing material (I have no idea). And maybe they use a slightly larger diameter crank pin and corresponding bearing. And maybe the journals are even wider than “normal” to help disperse this load, you’re still regularly putting the same loads on the rod bearings as a V8 making 520lbs of torque but the kicker is a naturally aspirated V8 (under 12 liters lol) is not making that 520lbs at 1,250 rpm, it’s more likely 3,500 to 5,000rpm where the bearing can handle much greater loads due to a stronger hydrodynamic wedge of oil to keep surfaces separated. These new and wonderful turbo setups coupled with DI (truly having your cake and eating it too) are doing it at such a low rpm that the journal bearing’s load bearing capacity before going metal to metal is diminished. This is where the need for a higher HTHS is desired and mandatory. Maybe there’s no “American” spec but BMW certainly has specs that should be followed that make sure you’re not going to hurt the engine and we have a bunch of oils over here that easily meet those specs. We have some truly great oils over here for anything you could want. I would like to know of any oils that are clearly better over there that we don’t have a counterpart for. I’ll find a way to get it sent here and use it in all my cars.

In addition, VW has had its own oil specs I’ve the years and while I don’t vace them memorized, I know that HTHS minimum was part of some of those specs, along with a host of other specs, all of which were usually met by a regular non boutique cheap grp III and grp II/III mix and readily available over here at any auto parts store.

I get nervous saying this in here for fear of what people will say but 20-25,000 miles in the Prius. I have several good reasons why my somewhat unique circumstances make it ok but I’ve alreay written a novel above and probably put everyone to sleep already. Congrats to anyone who is not sleeping this far in. I’ve only had one UOA near 20k on the oil, over 60k on the engine at the time and everything was surprisingly fine, even for a RL fan like myself. The TBN was low but it starts out low from the beginning and stays about the same through the OCI. In my conditions, this oil and to add pack easily go 20k. For honesty and clarity, it had a small amount of RL Power Sports 0w40 (the black bottle Redline) mixed in to give it a nice concentrated shot of additives, knowing it was going to be in there for quite a while. I don’t like mentioning this too much because you can get into trouble if you use too much of this oil. I used about 1/2 quart and mostly because I had it laying around already for a trial in the GN. It’s not necessary and in the future I’m not using it.

Exactly. The truth and common sense come out when you punch in your favorite oil’s specs into a viscosity calculator that shows it’s viscosoty over a wide range of temps. Once you see that your 0w40 is the same viscosity at startup on a 70F day as a 0w20 on a 40F day (for example, too tired to run the numbers tonight/today), and that once up to a mild 100F the differences are even less, it’s hard to go back to the one viscosity fits all and that’s not taking into account different driving conditions and styles where there can be a 40F difference in temp in the same car with the same ambient temp.

They can’t deny warranty repair for using a reasonable weight oil for your climate. It could become questionable if you are using a straight 60 in Alaska but otherwise you’re good. The thinner oils do not provide better protection even on startup compared to a slightly thicker oil assumkngnits aporopriate for the ambient conditions ansbyou would have to go to the extremes to end up with an oil that caused cold start issues with a modern oil’s higher VI and much lower PP than yesterday’s oils.

How can a 5w30 oil not be perfectly ok in my car in the very hot area I live in when a 0w or 5w20 is ok in a climate that’s 30 degrees cooler on average when THEY ARE BOTH ABOUT THE SAME VISCOSITY DUE TO THE TEMPERATURE DIFFERENCES. I’m not yelling with the caps but I’m not taking the time to bold anything in from my phone and the caps represent the meat of the argument.

Again, I’ve been overseas and while I’ve seen brands I’ve never seen here, every first or near first world country has had the typical M1, Castrol, Shell, and most all of the “good” brands we have here. What are these differences you speak of, I’m honestly curious. Common sense makes it seem obvious that Australia might have more higher viscosity oil’s available but that’s to fit their hotter-than-most climate. Europe can be all over the place and vary greatly in tenp in 24hrs obviously depending on where you are so t makes sense that a higher VI, wider spread oils like a 0w40 for example would be more abundant than in Australia. I’ve never been to Australia but I’ve seen some oddball weights like a 40w50 or something odd like that. Surely it’s a straight weight Newtonian oil.

I would love to see an oil that would clearly out perform Redline in any number of tests that’s not available here.

I think he most important thing is to look at the countries that do not have CAFE pressuring them to not only eek every last 0.00001mpg out of their cars but pressure manufacturers in the form of lost money for not recommending 0w20 in the manual and printed on the cap. I spent a bit of money years ago on a ton of white papers showing so much valuable data which usually corresponded to my personal results usually based on tear downs of an engine I blueprinted but the thing that blew my mind was reading a paper from CAFE to manufacturers that clearly stated that they want the 0w20 viscosity printed in the manual and on the cap with monetary penalties for not having it. I believe that the viscosity recommendations of the same car in other first world countries are of much more value. Do you really believe it’s a one size fits all and 0w20 is it? I have it on pretty good authority plus what I believe to be common sense that the recommendations in areas where CAFE isnt present are what the engineers of the car recommend. Why would we put more weight on the recommendations of a region where a government agency that’s focused solely on fuel economy consistently pushes just 20wt oils regardless of climate and penalizes manufacturers based on average mpg and for not complying with recommending this 20wt to the consumers over an area that has no government interference, has the same quality oils available, yet recommends a wide range of oil viscosities based on operating conditions, many times as thin in their colder areas as what is recommended over here for everything but also considerably thicker in most cases for hotter regions?

This is not supposed to be a thick vs thin debate. Both have their place, but if everyone bases their oil choices based on climate and driving conditions, we will all have similar weights in our cars. In my case, I put more emphasis on the 100c number since it warms the oil up gently at a low rpm with a little load provided by the generator. That’s about 5 minutes of my trip every day. I’m no way is a 0w20 going to give me better anything under those conditions. The next 1hr and 55 minutes is spent at 64-ish mph with the ICE on most of the time. Why would I not put more value on the “hot” viscosity?

I left out so much and didn’t elaborate on s couple points and I know some of this will be questioned but I would rather clear anything up tomorrow that I omitted. Insomniac here, but finally falling asleep and going to take advantage of it.