Featured Nissan freezes fuel cell car development

Reacting to your previous post: We agree that blaming the Sudbury mine pollution on nickel-metal hydride batteries makes no sense, given the timeline; can we also agree that blaming all the Middle East wars (the record of which goes all the way to His Maj. Sargon of Akkad) on fossil fuels?

We should understand that the “fossil fuel industry” is a bit of a label. The actual industries that should to be discussed are the extractive-, chemical- and energy industries - which are the basis of the real-world manufacturing of all tangible items.

It is always good when someone's curiosity in a given subject research is driven the love of science and tech, not by an ideology or a hidden agenda; frankly, if another device beats FC to the mass EV market, be it a (much) better battery, a super-duper-ultracapacitor, or - what the heck - a football-sized cold fusion reactor, I’d be just as excited.

 

yes, please forgive my vague wording. I should have said Wars since European/US oil influences became a huge Factor - roughly 100 years ago.
(oops, I was imprecise again, forgetting about the Romans' war/influence BTW &
I also forgot these folks have been warring ever since Israel kicked the Canaanites' A$$'s nearly 4,000 years ago.
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That's precisely why I am saying that this kind of arguments are a ruse, even though there might be a partial truth in some of them.

I do not believe that losses in FC have anything to do with the Carnot cycle, since they are not heat engines. Also, from what I know, the efficiency of a FC is typically 80% and can probably be brought to 90% with a lot of R&D. The ICE thermal efficiency (now, this does have to do with the Carnot cycle) can indeed reach the vicinity of 50%, but there are also massive losses on friction and due to the fact that the ICE often has to operate outside of its favorite RPM range, so the overall energy efficiency is more like 20%.
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Theoretically an ideal hydrogen fuel cell can operate at 83% efficiency at STP, look here for the physics. Electrolysis of Water and Fuel Cell Operation
Some fuel cells can get close to this level but they need to run hot and use that heat as part of the input of the reaction. The way people get to claim 90% is using the heat of the reaction for something and counting that energy. The problem with this in a car is efficiency in short trips is awful as this is all wasted heating up the cell. In PEM type fuel cells that toyota and honda are using in cars, there are other losses making it very tough to get over the 60% they have now. Really the efficiency is good enough the problem is the cost of the fuel cells and the fuel. That is what they are working on now.

58% is the theoretical efficiency and there are engines that reach 50%. The relatively inexpensive toyota dynamic force 2L hybrid engine is 41% efficient.

 

Hurray for Nissan! I'm still wearing out my Prius before I buy another car, which probably won't be another Toyota. One, because they refuse to make EVs, and two, because they continue to insist hydrogen fuel cells are viable.

 

Not true: What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

	Source	Billion kWh	Share
1	Fossil fuels (total)	2516	62.7%
2	Natural gas	1273	31.7%
3	Coal	1208	30.1%
4	Petroleum (total)	21	0.5%
5	Petroleum liquids	13	0.3%
6	Petroleum coke	9	0.2%
7	Other gases	14	0.4%
8	Nuclear	805	20.0%
9	Renewables (total)	687	17.1%
10	Hydropower	300	7.5%
11	Wind	254	6.3%
12	Biomass (total)	64	1.6%
13	Wood	43	1.1%
14	Landfill gas	11	0.3%
15	Municipal solid waste (biogenic)	7	0.2%
16	Other biomass waste	3	0.1%
17	Solar (total)	53	1.3%
18	Photovoltaic	50	1.2%
19	Solar thermal	3	0.1%
20	Geothermal	16	0.4%
21	Pumped storage hydropower3	-6	-0.2%
22	Other sources	13	0.3%

Not true: Wells to wheels: electric car efficiency | Energy Matters

. . . now we have a number that we really can compare [electric car rjw] directly to a gasoline car – we’re accounting for everything from the well to the wheel, and that number is around 30%.

So what’s a typical number for well-to-wheel for a conventional car? About 14%.
. . .
​

Not true because electric cars make urban air clean enough to breath. For example, Peking air:

False because they raise the prices high enough to support USA production: Lithium Mining in the USA - The Next Mining Boom? - RareGoldNuggets.com

. . .
The growth in demand for lithium has already caused a stir in the mining sector. Already there are several startups and a number of established mining firms seeking to establish themselves in the sector.

In many ways, prospecting for lithium is no different than any other mineral. A prospector simply needs to research probably areas based on historical knowledge and geological indicators. From there, it’s simply a matter of getting out and searching for it.

Some of the major sources of lithium in the United States include:

Clayton Valley (Nevada)
Imperial Valley (California)
King Valley (Nevada)

Ancient dry lake beds are the best sources of lithium that we know of, and these sites are getting claimed up quickly. Many parts of the Great Basin and Southwest are covered with these lake beds and they hold great potential for lithium. Exploration in California, Nevada, Utah, and Arizona is very likely for the foreseeable future.
. . .​

The basic economics remain:

• ~$16.00/kg for ~50 miles - hydrogen costs today (survey of California hydrogen stations and FCVs)
• ~$2.91/gal for ~50 miles - modern hybrids gasoline costs June 2018 (source: https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec9_6.pdf)
• ~$1.56/EV ~50 miles - Tesla Model 3 @$0.12/kWh (EPA and EIA)

This is money picked out of the driver's pocket.

Bob Wilson

 

...... another important cost efficiency -
PV:
unlike diesel, gas, hydrogen etc ??
Add residential solar to increase cost efficiency & PV can cut the 12¢/kWh - $1.56 for 50 miles all the way down to ZERO ¢/kWh - ZERO ¢/50 miles.
A set of panels capable of 4kW's will generate enough 'fuel' to run an EV (that gets 3miles per kWh) for 12K miles a year (once they're amortized, which takes <6yrs, presuming no $3/gallon gas burned in a 50mpg car - nor having to earn the additional 30% fed/state income tax to pay for 240 gallons /yr)
A substantial % of EV owners already realize & take advantage of this.
Can other automotive fuel sources do this? umm - not so much.

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But how much do those solar panels, battery storage, charger, additional electrical wiring and EV premium over a conventional ICE cost initially?

Solar panels so you get that free electricity. Battery storage so you have that electricity to charge your car because most charging occurs when the sun isn't shining. Wiring because you have to tie everything together into the house, outlets and the grid. Charger to get the electricity to the car. And the car will cost more than a conventional car.

Them project out what you'd expect to make investing that money. Now spread those costs back into a per mile cost and I'd bet you'll be surprised. TINSTAAFL.

 

you have over complicated a very simple principal. When you have just plain old solar, your meter credits you. When you use from the grid - it subtracts your credit.
Similarly if you use 1,000 kwh of juice a month anyway per month, then you add an EV that uses 300 kwh per month, your solar system will cause you to use 300 kwh per month less. The fact that you can say, "oh but how do I know if the house is using the PV", becomes irrelevant.
get it?
Additionally, the model 3 comes with a portable 240 / 120 charger evse as do some other cars
Additionally, the cost parody of an electric versus ice is almost on par, not that it matters, because some buy a caddy. Does it have a premium? Some buy a Harley. Does it have a premium? Premium is in the mind of the beholder.
Additionally, electrical wiring? Really? Tell you what, you can add an extra 3 months to your own personal amortization of your solar. Bam - got you covered on that too.

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I wonder if most of them would still drive the car if the manufacturers didn't foot the fuel bill.

 

yes, even without an ev or plug-in car .... solar still reduces your monthly costs. But I also forgot another glaring point. Every year, the utility runs down to the commission to get rate increases. With solar, you can kiss those rate increases goodbye. But hey, if the cost of the wire & the length of rate of return is too long, just keep paying the utility company. That works for them.

 

I am bringing everyone's attention to what can be called "truth-bending" rhetorical devices, such as cherry-picking, overemphasizing one thing while omitting its opposite, shifting the goal posts, deploying excessive amounts of (often irrelevant) facts-and-figures for most people to reasonably process, over-generalization, drawing cause-effect connections where there are none …

 

Horrors! Taking your words and replying with facts and data: Nissan freezes fuel cell car development | Page 3 | PriusChat

Oh the humanity!

Where are your sources?

We look forward to seeing them . . . if they exist.

Bob Wilson

 

ok - got it .... earlier though, you'd already mentioned how the hydrogen "issue" acted like a catalyst - becoming argumentative on another plugin forum. Anyone pushing hydrogen on a plug-in forum should already be able to understand why hydrogen's test tube experimentation evokes a negative response.

Example; If someone comes onto PC claiming that, "the fuel lobby &/or the hydrogen lobby say plugins are not necessarily the best because of the following dozen reasons" (already proven bogus) ... yet most here have already heard & debunked (numerous times) the fake hybrid & anti plugin claims .... & we continue debunking the fake stories for over a decade now. See? what should the hydrogen proponent expect?
And then? When all the anti plugin bs is thoroughly rebutted? again & again? The thought naturally arises - "is this hydrogen inquiry just another ploy to replant the same anti-plugin BS seeds of FUD?
After all, in order to remain a sheep in wolves clothing - a pro hydrogen advocate necessarily must respond, "oh no, I'm only repeating what THEY say.'
Really? Ok ... tell me more ...

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That's why I would love to see "Mirai" and "Clarity" relatively large batteries, to operate more or less like the Volt. This would allow to park the FC stack in its favorite temperature and electric current range, maximizing efficiency, while the battery would provide acceleration, regenerative braking and 100% of propulsion for shorter daily trips.

On a relateve subject: are you interested in supercapacitors?

 

Supercapacitors do have potential, once they are not so bulky & can provide more long term power longer .... longer than the short duration that they currently do.
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Here is, for illustration purposes only, a sample of a nonpartisan throw-in FUD: "Which one will become first prohibitively expensive to extract - lithium or fossil hydrocarbons?"

A Persian proverb teaches us that "The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on". The rEVolution will continue; I have a feeling that in the next 10-20 years pure ICE will gradually get entrenched in a narrow, but permanent niche for hardcore enthusiasts; the non-plug hybrid may quietly fade away, and the pure BEV may completely displace everything in the short-haul (urban/suburban) market, but the general purpose car would be a BEV with a liquid FC range extender.