Jaguar I-Pace by Tesla Owner

I am not sure what this example has to do with my reality. I said: $3,400, effective 50mpg and 400 mile range. One would think we are talking different languages here or something.

2017
FIAT® 500e

• 121 MPGe City/103 MPGe Highway Ratings4
• Driving Range of 84 Miles5

• EPA Estimated Fuel Consumption Rate of 30 Kilowatt Hours (kWh) Per 100 Miles6
• Electric-Drive Motor with 111 HP (83 kW) and 147 LB-FT (200 Nm) of Torque

MSRP* STARTING AT
$32,995

 

Thank you for letting me know you have put me on "ignore." I guess he didn't serve in the military in any significant way, but we'll never know.

A total commitment to the environment has to come from within. Being an ardent hybrid fan (partial EV) is not the same as being an ardent BEV commitment.

 

2017
FIAT® 500e

• 121 MPGe City/103 MPGe Highway Ratings4

Well that exceeds your 50 mpg criteria

• Driving Range of 84 Miles5

Driving range is >100 miles in reality based on my daughters experience. Driving range is unlimited with recharging at home. people on this forum say that the 30 miles range provided by the Prius Prime satisfies over 90% of their driving needs. So that meets your 400 mile range (which is rarely needed).

• EPA Estimated Fuel Consumption Rate of 30 Kilowatt Hours (kWh) Per 100 Miles6

Yes and no gasoline purchase required and no oil changes required and no stealership shenanigans to put up with. Some small cost in electricity provided by a 120v outlet in the garage or elsewhere. Exceeds your expectations.

• Electric-Drive Motor with 111 HP (83 kW) and 147 LB-FT (200 Nm) of Torque

Off the line will beat a Prius and is more than able to keep up with a Prius on the highway. Meets your criteria.

MSRP* STARTING AT
$32,995​

You stated a price point of $3400, let's do the math. $50/mo. lease equals approximately 5.5 years for $3400. Add in the savings on gasoline and oil changes and repairs to ICE and you can probably double that to 11 years. This far exceeds your criteria.

So where are we in disagreement? Or do you want to add more criteria?

 

Even if I had a BEV, I'd be charging off the grid which is still largely sourced from poison spewing sources here in New England:
(from ISO New England)


Oil for electric generation tends to spike in the coldest whether here in the winter, as the natural gas supply is limited and used for home heating. This usually occurs when BEVs get their worst mileage and any solar panels are covered in snow and get limited daylight anyway. BEVs are an improvement over ICE, but right now they're still gonna kill ya.

 

Yes, it does satisfy one of the criteria, but not all three.

No, this most certainly does NOT meet my 400 mile needs. it meets my 100 mile needs (if in deed the range is 100 miles). In what world does 100 = 400? I live about 100 miles from my octogenarian mom. I need to be able to drop everything and drive over there on a moment's notice if something happens to her (she lives by herself). After that I need to turn around and drive back home, usually asap. That is 200 miles of range on tap minimum requirement. a 100 mile car simply does not work for me. It is a show stopper. Plain and simple. I would need a second car sitting collecting dust in my driveway (wasted insurance and ownership cost).

This duplicates the first bullet

I did not specify criterium for beating Prius off the line, I specified reliable, which the jury on Fiat (Fix it again, Tony) is out. Also, four doors is a must. I am too old for two door cars. and I need the cargo space of a Prius.

Again, in what world is $32,995 = $3,400?

After 5.5. years I still own my Prius that still gets 50mpg. What does a person leasing for 5.5 years own? Also leases are for less than 5.5 years, usually 2 years and then you need to either buy the car at a huge loss or lease another.

Oil changes on a Prius cost all of $60/year. Higher fuel cost is the only thing that is true and is a price to pay for the fact that I really do need a 400 mile range car. I need to be able to do 200 miles in a day without refuel (or a gas-like 5 minute refuel) and it needs to be able to happen without prior planning. So if I have a 200 mile EV that is at 20% when I need to make my 200 mile trip I am hosed. It simply does not work.

We can go on like this for a long time and the reality will still be reality for myself and majority of driving population in this country. I am not anti-EV, in fact I am a big fan. But the fact is it's not ready for prime time yet.

 

I also live in Massachusetts, so I would also be using mostly electricity generated mostly by burning natural gas. This is simply reality of today's world. Some places are better at renewables than others, but for the most part, electricity in this country comes from fossil fuel. That is not to say EVs are a waste of effort. They certainly are not. They will prevail, I am sure of it. It will just take a bit more time than some wish.

Another crucial point is the more transportation goes electric the more the prices of electricity will rise (simple supply and demand laws of marketplace) and also the taxes that comprise a hefty portion of gas prices today will have to be shifted to electricity somehow. All this will reduce the cost advantage of electric significantly. Possibly to no advantage at all if big business has its way (and it usually does).

 

I pay between $0.11 and $0.12 per kWhr. It's consistently higher than national average.

 

What's my alternative? I drive 300 miles on Monday to get to my place of employment, then drive 30 miles one way to a crash pad that only has street parking without access to charging. 30 miles back to work each day, no charging at my place of employment. Then, 330 miles back to the beach house on the weekends where charging and civilization exists. A hybrid is my only alternative at any price.

 

Now we have the beginnings of a meaningful and useful dialog!

Thank you for your chart on N.E. electric generation, most interesting. I agree with you that N.E. is not a primary candidate for PV electric generation, but more on that down post. Additional nuclear electric generation is viable (as long as we don't succumb to the NIMBY opposition) but disposal of spent fuel is problematic and it is not a renewable source of eneregy. So that leaves us with natural gas electric generation. NG is a fossil fuel and most scientists (those that don't work for big oil) report that natural gas is a finite resource, we/you will run out of it some day. When? nobody knows for sure. When it does run out, who you gonna call? Contingency plans need to be formulated now to avoid a natural disaster of apocalyptic order when people freeze to death in their homes because of limited electric generation. In the meantime, NG is less polluting than oil and coal for electric generation. This article explains the pros and cons of natural gas better than I can. Using NG is a stopgap measure, but we can do better. So that brings us back to renewable sources of energy.

Elon Musk and Solar City are working on the development of large solar PV farms in appropriate areas. The idea is to generate "free" electrical energy from the sun and transmit it to areas where PV systems are not as efficient, for example New England. We all need to encourage our local governmental representatives to advocate government policies to facilitate the development of these kinds of systems. Since you live in MA, I would like to recognize and recommend Elizabeth Warren as an advocate on your behalf. She has the clout to get it done if her constituents (you) demand that she get it done. The same can be said for other alternative sources of renewable energy - wind, geothermal, and hydrokinetic(wave action). In fact Denmark, which has a seasonal pattern similar to N.E. gets their primary source of electricity from offshore wind farms. If big oil can put in offshore oil rigs, then offshore wind farms are equally viable. Of course, the oil industry is fighting this because they want to maintain control of energy resources in the US. Denmark is also developing hydrokinetic resources to further diversify their energy needs. The first thing you N.E. residents could do is become aware of alternative sources electric energy and then advocate for them. We can do it! Yes we can!

As far as the price of electricity increasing, nobody knows. But I can tell you that the price of medical care is going up and will continue to increase as a result of increased medical care for cancer and respiratory diseases caused by pollution and greenhouse gasses. Renewable forms of generating "clean" electricity is the less expensive alternative in the long run.

 

First and foremost, I applaud you for taking good care of your Mom.

Since you are adding criteria, I would suggest the Leaf or Ioniq (looks like a Prius) or Bolt would be good alternatives for you. Used ones are starting to show up in the marketplace at competitive prices. Another alternative is to lease a new one. Your savings in gasoline will go a long way in making your lease payments. I wish there was a Toyota to recommend, but they are way behind the curve now.

I feel like a matchmaker!

You have chosen a lifestyle that is an edge case. I get it. Once upon a time, I drove 180 miles into the city, paid for a local apartment, and then commuted to my rural home at the beach to work a four day weekend. Your alternatives would be a 5 year old Tesla Model S (about $30K) or a Model 3 Long Range (about <$40K after rebates and credits). Yes, it does cost extra to work in the city and enjoy weekends at the beach.

 

I pay 0.00 per kWh with PV on the roof. My system pays for itself in <6 years. Yes, I understand that PV is not as cost effective in some parts of the US.

 

Surprisingly, there is a lot of PV solar going up around here, both in the form of rooftop solar and some small scale solar farms. It's very useful at this time of year as it limits the peak generation needs. Beyond that, New England appears to be headed for future electrical problems because NIMBY is rampant.

We've rejected offshore wind near Cape Cod: What Was Once Hailed as First U.S. Offshore Wind Farm Is No More - Bloomberg

We've closed down nuclear power: Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant - Wikipedia

This of course increases the demand for natural gas to cover what would have been supplied by nuclear and wind, but we don't want more pipelines to bring in the natural gas: Stop Spectra Energy in Massachusetts | Fighting the Spectra Access Northeast fracked gas pipelines and infrastructure through numerous Massachusetts towns. On the bright side natural gas is a fossil fuel, but the downside is if we can't burn that we burn oil instead, which is dirtier.

And finally, we oppose transmission lines to bring electricity generated elsewhere into the region: Sudbury Homeowners Fight Eversource Power Line Plan &laquo; CBS Boston

So apparently we don't want any electricity, clean or otherwise. And this is in a liberal-minded region!

Hmm, I think we've strayed a bit from the original topic.

 

DANG! other than a few fleeting kWh's (enough for 1 fridg & a couple LED's) basic at tier1 - SO Cal starts @ 15¢ then quickly jacks to 21¢/kWh. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how fast solar pays for itself with a bunch of overpaid thieves running the show at the utility company. Before you know it, you hit tier 3 & really feel the pain.

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Our rates are not tiered. Those prices are 24/7. They do fluctuate month to month. The town I live in has its own electric company which purchases and distributes power to town residents. They also maintain the infrastructure. We are not served by National Grid. The power we buy via our municipal utility is heavily weighted towards renewables, but it's still a tiny portion because New England. However, our rates are fairly compatible and stable. I really like having a municipal power utility vs. National Grid.

 

Nonoe of those cars are 400 mile cars. Only the very top Tesla will fit that criterium.

Also, you are forgetting the $3,400 price. It is very important. If not for me in particular, for some folk who can hardly afford any more and have bad credit, etc to obtain a lease.

Again, NO, EVs are not for everyone. In fact they are not for most people who drive today. And again, it will change in time, I am sure of it. But now we are not there yet. I think the biggest hurdle is refueling and cost. Once those two things get inline with current paradigm the floodgates of adaption will open.

And again, I will re-iterate the simple supply and demand law of marketplace will drive the prices of electricity up to make driving EV cost about what it cost to drive ICE energy-wise. It is not even an IF, it's a WHEN. And WHEN is after the floodgates of adaption open. So for now the savings will be there, but not once the majority of transportation is electrified.

 

I also have a municipal electric provider (Groton Electric), but my rates are two tier. Last I looked, it was about 10 cents for the first 500 kW, and about 12 cents after that. We are the lucky ones! It's more expensive if you're on National Grid, Con Edison, etc.

 

What I like best is that during emergencies the crews are on the job fixing stuff in minutes and power is restored with amazing speed. In 11 years I lived here we only had one power outage that lasted more than a few minutes. It was after the Halloween ice storm that took most oak trees in the area down (because they still had leaves on them). We were without power for about 72 hours. Some of our neighbors in the next town over served by National Grid were without power for over a month (they had to buy generators). Some of the smaller streets were without power even longer. It was crazy, but we were back in three days. Since then nothing even close to that severity happened. There were maybe two or three occasions when power was out for 15 - 20 minutes, but that's it. I have a generator now (didn't during the ice storm) and have not really used it except to make sure it still works.

Our town also has a few fairly large PV farms that were installed in the past few years. Since they are on town property I assume they help our electric rates somewhat. But again, we are on 42nd parallel, so in winter those PV panels get precious little light at 42-23=19 degree inclination.

 

Yep, same here. We lose power for hours, the next town over loses power for days. I actually live near the border of 3 towns, served by 3 different utility companies. After the ice storm it took almost a week to get power back to the local shopping center, because the outage was right where the three utilities came together, so each utility had to have a crew there before work could proceed, or so I heard.

As for PV and rates, the way I understand it the rate at any given time is set by the most expensive generation source. As more power is needed more and more expensive sources are used, until at peak demand in the summer the utility can be paying dollars for every kW used. PV is producing near its peak at this time so it's a double win because it reduces the amount of power used, and if it avoids the need to tap expensive sources it reduces the price too!