Toyota Owners Jump Ship to Tesla

Really? Where did you get your sources that it was for-profit? Far as I know, its a non-profit organization and I'm a contributing member on there. It seems to me that you always like to come off and disregard everything I post on here even when I provide sources to back my claims. some ones ego needs to be check instead of trying to disregard facts. True delta is makes no money off of anyone, its free to join, Its very much like Consumer Reports but free as you become a member and contributed to the database on self reported repairs of real owners as there are about 100k active contributors on there. It has nothing to do with pulling information from public forums if you actually took the time to use the website. All reported repairs are gather by the frequency of reported repairs that are compiled into reliability ranking reports. The ratio of repairs are compared to least amount to the most amount based on model, make and year. You might as well say CR is Toyota bias if you thought True Delta was being bias. It comes to no surprise as Toyota still holds the benchmark in quality control as the company has been a true pioneer of Lean manufacturing with the help of Deming. That was the whole point NUMMI being created, was to bring Toyota's "Lean" Production System to the U.S. TPS (Toyota Production System) Is regarded as one of the most efficient manufacturing systems in the industry. It was adopted by Hyundai in recent years to improve their quality control and manufacturing issues. Six-Sigma has been a failure for a large number of companies that many are opting for LEAN. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00207540701223493

 

Man, you read a lot into that.

 

Oops, forgot to reply to this.

Which is probaly why Tesla is doing high performance sedans and SUVs.

My 1996 Taurus was rear ended. The offending minivan's hood was buckled up at the windshield. The only visible damage on the Taurus was scuffed up bumper paint. Years later I realized the impact must have twisted the car's entire frame. The rack and pinion issue that was replaced under warranty was likely caused by that impact.
A single picture of car damage may not show all the damage.

Aluminum does cost more than steel, but it reduces weight and improves efficiency. Costs more to repair because it requires different tools and skills. The same is true of high strength steel that cars are using more and more of. Part of improving car efficiency is cutting weight. If it was free, we wouldn't need to do it. Shops that can do the work can charge a premium as long as there is only a few of them. Ford pick ups starting getting all aluminum bodies in 2015. With annual sales of over 700k a year, it won't be long until there are more shops that can work on aluminum.

You are aware that your Prius has an aluminum hood and hatch? I'd like to see a $1000+ estimate to fix a scratch on it.

Tesla is a luxury brand. Replacing a windshield on my HHR was about $300. For a friend's RX, it was over $1100. Part of it was because of fancy features, like sensors for the auto wipers, and part of it was simply because it was a Lexus.

You quotes for repair costs are for the Model S. Its starting price is $75,000. These quotes are reasonable for such a car. The fact that people are paying that much, despite its lower reliability than a Toyota, and are willing to get another, just illustrates that the demand for a BEV with infrastructure is there. Also, Tesla has a 20% to 25% margin on the Model S and X.

The Model 3 costs less, and so will repairs. For one thing, it isn't all aluminum, but a mix of steel and other materials, like the Prius.

My replies below are in whatever color this is; probably so fruit.

• 17 inch screen Media Control Unit about a $2,700-$3,800 when the gen2 Prius arrived, the MFD was over $1000, and may have been much more
  
• Center Touchscreen: Blank Screen of Death
• Battery back replacement $12,000 By Glob that is cheap. going by Toyota statements on the PiP pack, it should be over $80 grand
• Tesla Model S 85kw Battery Replacement Cost
• Drive unit replacement. $6,000 How much do you think it would cost to replace the engine and transmission on the LC500?
  
• Cost of Drive Unit Replacement?
• Electronic door handle replacement $800-$1,000 each The storage bins in the RX would auto open and close at the push of a button. They probably cost more to replace than the bin lids in a Yaris.
  
• Door Handle Replacement
• DC-DC converter $2,500-$2,600 Sounds like the same DC-DC converter as with the heater above.
• 12V battery issue, service wants to replace DC-DC converter
• Heater System $3,000-$3,500 the DC-DC converter($2100 part) that is part of the system had an non-serviceable fuse on older cars(this is a 2012 to 2013). Newer cars have a replaceable fuse.
  
• Heater stopped working
• On-board charger $2,300 the one for the Prime is probably $1000 to $1500, which has a lower power rating.
  
• Costly Replacement Charger, after 50,000 miles.
• A/C Compressor replacement $3,400 also involves the DC-DC converter
  
• A/C Compressor finally failed. But $3400??!
  TrueDelta | 2013 Tesla Model S electrical Problems
• Tesla Model S Reliability at TrueDelta: Real-world reliability data
• Tesla Model X Reliability at TrueDelta: Real-world reliability data
• Holy crap, repairs are insanely expensive, beware!! sounds like Tesla is being overly cautious. They require the steering gear to be replaced with any such front end damage.

It is opt in, just like CR's consumer surveys, but I don't think they post anything publicly about a model until they got a large enough sample. Checking the site right now, it doesn't appear to actually do much rating of anything. It is a research site that gives finer detail on what could go wrong with a potential car, and give an ideal of the costs by compiling actual repairs and services from owners of the car. This is much better than CR's number of issues per 100 cars score, because Truedelta tells you what the issues people experienced actually were.

Here is the problem page for the 2013 Model S.
2013 Tesla Model S Repairs and Problem Descriptions at TrueDelta
There is a chart breaking down where the problems are; engine, transmission, body and trim, etc.
Next is a chart of repair costs. 70% were $100 or less, and 16% were under $500.
Follows in the actual filed issues from owners in the system.

I would not read much into the owner of the site being here. He also joined the Sonic forum I was on to solicit owners to supply data.

What was I spinning? I posted the source of that Japanese incentive multiple times here. A former Toyota executive has stated the companies claims of not getting Japanese government support weren't true.

And you are always bringing up the 'what if' for sales for when the federal tax credits expire. You mentioned it in this thread. You must be covering in fish oil.

@hill waswww talking about incentives, and I blatantly stated tax deduction. You were the one narrowing it down to tax credits and portraying the history as if that was all there was in US when you surely knew differently.

 

With your observation, you are comparing an experienced company vs a new inexperience company. Denso Corp, which is Toyota's primary electrical system supplier that have been building quality electronics for the past 68 years as they make some of the most reliable electrical systems out there. Again, this is where quality control comes to play, as the company puts a lot of emphasis on quality. The company was also awarded the Deming prize just after Toyota. Both companies were trained by the legendary W. Edwards Deming during TWI (Training-Within-Industry). Toyota is very careful on choosing and evaluating quality suppliers before signing contacts. Denso electronics have been used in Toyota/Lexus models for decades as they are pretty reliable compared to Bosch electrical systems found on VW, Mercedes and BMWs.

Item 7. Toyota Awarded the Deming Prize

Quality Control | CSR | DENSO Global Website

$80k for a battery? That's quite over exaggerating. hmm to prove you wrong. Its not any more expensive than previous Prius models. I buy many of my OEM parts from this store when ever needed.

2017 Toyota Prius Prime Electrical Parts And Components battery Battery Assembly - OEM Toyota Parts

"How much do you think it would cost to replace the engine and transmission on the LC500?"

Highly unlikely as Toyota makes quite reliable engines. It would take an awful long time to break a Toyota engine. Going through 2 to 4 motor drive units while still under warranty doesn't seem very reliable alright. That's equivalent to replacing an engine 2 to 4 times on a single car. That would classified as a lemon. Drive units have been a problematic issue on Tesla's esp the Model S.


The Door handle assembly on a Model S is a $700 part, the labor added on comes to a grand, replaced by a Tesla Service Technician. Non- Tesla door handle repair? | Tesla Motors Club


Charging port for the Prius Prime? oh no problem.


2017 Toyota Prius Prime Lid sub-assembly, battery charger connector opening - 5840947030 | Evans Toyota, Fort Wayne IN



Telsa on the other hand has very little experience in automotive electronics to begin with. The vast majority of all Tesla electrical systems are proprietary built in-house, but the company's quality control sucks as they are using the old Six-Sigma stuck on the old Ford Just-in-Case Manufacturing model. Many people have been going through many those electrical components while still covered under warranty and past the 4 year 50k mile warranty. These cars have a ton of electronic gizmos that's impractical and not needed, prone to failure just like a Mercedes Benz. Autopilot just adds on more electronic complexity, with more computers and sensors. Its an unnecessary technological feature that's not needed to make it a driviable machine. Remember Tesla is not really a car company. They put a lot of emphasis on Technology just like Mercedes. All the new technological complexity in a car turns them into money pit machines. Toyota main emphasis is building reliable quality fuel efficient vehicles.

90% Of Tesla Cars Need Repair After Assembly, Say Former Work

Again, Tesla has full monopoly on all OEM parts, as they don't sell them on to the open market nor any aftermarket suppliers makes parts for the company. You are at the sole of the Tesla Service Center serving them The labor cost is quite high as a decent amount of those repairs have been $175 an hour.



2 On Your Side: Some Owners Say Tesla Model X Needs Too Many Repairs For Six-Figure Price

Full brake jobs costing a bundle started out from ***Cough*** $8,500 ***Cough***, final bill came to a total of $5,824.75. Out of pocket expensive, not covered under warranty. Fixing a Rolls-Royce? Ouch! First huge repair bill. | Tesla Motors Club I advise not to buy any of these cars used unless you're a millionaire! In my Scotty Kilmer voice.

I'm not a fan of the over the air updates concept. Tesla's are designed like an iPhone with fixed hardware that's none upgrade-able. There is no way to upgrade the Media Control Unit's RAM, storage capacity and CPU. Over a period of time, continuous software updates will cripple aging hardware requiring more resources that becomes sluggish. This is especially true with latest software and entire operating system upgrades rendering the hardware into planned obsolescence. You would need to physically upgrade the hardware to handle the latest and greatest. That's why most auto makers don't care for upgrading their infotainment systems when the new next model car comes out with upgraded hardware as it sort of defeats the purpose. Another disadvantage with over the air updates is the entire car is vulnerable to malicious software and cyber attacks as an open system that's connected to the internet. It's now part of the internet of things circle. That's going to require frequent security software patches just like Android and iOS. Terrorists Could Use Teslas to Kill Us

 

My source for that information is..........................you!
EDIT: ah, after re-reading your post above, you are saying that with TD information is free to see but with CR you have to pay for a subscription to see information. Grammar and punctuation help in conveying clarity of thought.

There is no verification that reports are from actual owners or not. There can be and has been both positive and negative bias on individual brands posted by non-owners of that brand.

The sole ownership of True Delta is Michael Karesh. He is on several branded forums urging people to join TrueDelta.

CR has the same problem as TrueDelta as a result of self-reporting by unverified contributors. And then there is the conundrum that CR and TD results and findings do not correlate by specific brands. You would think that if both site's results were valid, they would be consistent and correlate. How do you explain that?

 

Let's see, I can have the CPU replaced by Tesla in my model 3 for $1K or $2K or whatever amount to get the "latest and greatest." OR I can pay Toyota $34K for a new Prius Prime to replace my one year old Prime to get the "latest and greatest." This is a hard decision, which one am I going to choose! Most auto makers don't want OTA upgrades because planned obsolescence is their profitable friend.

 

The thing is, that isn't true. They had a BEV: The Rav4 EV, 100% battery powered. It was built from 1997 to 2014. In 2012 it was even built in partnership with Tesla and had Tesla motors batteries, with a range of over 100 miles!

They really didn't execute well, though. I don't know if it didn't sell well because it was slow and expensive, or they just decided not to make very many of them. It reeks of being a compliance car (built to meet government mandates--California was threatening to force all car companies to make BEVs by a certain year). In any case, they made BEVs for years.

 

Thank you for the memories. The Rav EV was $51K in 2014 with a 120 mile range. The aerodynamics were awful and it was dreadfully slow. It was a compliance car and was only sold in certain cities in California. It was not Toyota's best effort.

I know that Tesla and Toyota were in some sort of partnership at that time. Too bad it didn't work out, it could have been a win/win for both companies.

 

There was a Rav4 EV made by Toyota during the first ZEV program. Toyota even crushed some of them like GM did to the EV1.

The latest Rav4 EV was a compliance car, and it didn't move well at first because Toyota's lease company wasn't passing on the incentive savings onto the leasee like everyone else was doing. It wasn't a Toyota BEV, the drive train and battery was all Tesla. It wasn't slow. As a compliance car, Toyota ended the partnership once the agreed upon 3000 were made. They were really pushing hydrogen FCEV, and the Mirai would arrive soon. CARB accounting meant they could sell fewer of those, and still meet their ZEV quotas.

There was a Toyota BEV that was going to come out around the time of the Rav4 EV; the iQ EV. Its EPA range was way under 50 miles, and likely would have had a MSRP of around $40k. Only a few hundred were made, and sold to fleets and ride shares.

It was good for both. Tesla got much needed capital and experience. Toyota made money when they sold their Tesla stock, and got to unload the old NUMMI factory on Tesla.

Yes, Tesla is inexperienced, but they haven't failed like other start ups, because they are offering something that is demand that the experienced car companies have refused to do so. Returning to the OT, many people choose a Toyota hybrid not because it was a Toyota, but because it was a hybrid and a step towards EVs. Toyota is free to play wait and see, but those customers are free to move on when Toyota no longer offers what they want.

Keeping part production in house is a way of controlling quality. The Model X introduction was delayed because Tesla was having issues with the original supplier of the falcon doors. I think they went with another supplier. You claims of them making everything in house may not be true.

There is also a question of cost. Tesla took NUMMI off Toyota's hands as part of their partnership. This factory once ran multiple car lines for both Toyota and GM. It once made the Corolla/Prizim and Matrix/Vibe. It's a big factory, and it's in California. Tesla might lose money leaving it empty.

When the recent plug ins first came to market, analysis, guesses, and quotes from manufacturers put the battery price per kWh in the $900 to $1200 range. They are much cheaper now. As part of a supply agreement GM is paying just over $100 a kWh for the Bolt batteries.

That listing may not be what you think it is. A similar one for the gen1 Volt when it first arrived would put its 16kWh pack at $3000.

everything is at risk of breaking. It wasn't too long ago when Toyota engines had a serious sludge issues from a defect on Toyota's end.

The issue may have been the choice of bearings. The metal ones may have developed surface pitting because of the intense magnetic forces they were exposed too, resulting in the noise. The fix was to go to ceramic bearings. Going by your anti-aluminum stance, you would have been against using a more costly material.

The problem just resulted in a noise, not in an effect on the car's operation. Your Prius has likely developed some engine noises with time that you can't pick out from its background sounds. If you did, Toyota and others would likely tell you its normal, and send you on your way. Tesla choose to replace drive units to keep customers happy, and to study the units to learn the fix. Toyota denied the sludging was because of them at first.

And the second poster there fixed it themselves with a $1.18 part from Tesla.

The Model S ranges from $75k to over $100k. Parts for cars in those prices ranges are going to have high retail prices. Most people that usually buy such cars are use to and expect it. As the first long range BEV available, the Model S attracted people that weren't.

This is just the receptacle for the plug on a Prime. Your Tesla link was about the charger itself. For charging off an SC source, plug in cars use an onboard charger. A Tesla's is capable of drawing high amperage and voltage. Since they do plug into the grid, they are suspectible to damage caused surges and 'dirty' electricity.

Toyota parts sites weren't very helpful for finding the actual charger. The best I saw was a charge controller that was over $900.

The risk is with any car that is connected, not just those that update over the air.

Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway—With Me in It | WIRED
Volkswagen Cars Open To Remote Hacking, Researchers Warn | Threatpost | The first stop for security news
What the WikiLeaks CIA files say about your car - The Washington Post

 

Yes, that is an excellent point! As I recall, they contracted the drive system out to Tesla. They’re not selling any now though...

 

Yes, Mr. orenji. I owned 3 1969 Alfa Romeos: a GTV, a Spider Veloce and a Berlina, all at approximately 260,000 miles when I sold them due to divorce and loss of garage space. The GTV was the BEST car I ever owned while all these cars were extremely reliable, NEVER breaking down in all the years (approximately 20 years) I owned them! Remember, these were Italian cars, not Fiats! Today's Alfas come from (God help us!), Fiat. My Alfas never had electrical problems, had no added smog devices (no air pump, no nox device), were fuel injected with wet liners, sodium filled valves, hemi-head, crossflow heads, alloys heads and blocks, 4-wheel power disc brakes with Lockheed components. The electrics were Bosch. The cars did require 3K oil/filter changes and tune ups every 12,000 miles, but they were bulletproof and sheer joy to drive. Sadly, when I recently looked into getting another '69 GTV or Spider like my brother-in-law's (I had talked him into his '69 Spider decades ago; he now has at least 4 older additional Alfas!), I was quoted "around $60K" for one in good condition!! Yes sir, there are RELIABLE and fun Alfa Romeos!

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
AChoiredTaste.com

 

The goalposts are on casters. The most reliable cars of that era would fairly stand next to the least reliable cars of today.

 

My GOALPOSTS are in STONE! MY standards for quality and reliability have not budged an inch! If a car runs perfectly, if all accessories, devices, components, seals, gaskets, electrical components, etc. operate without flaw, that sir is a reliable car. These 3 automobiles performed in this manner during my time of ownership, with an accumulated total miles (by me and my wife), of over 500,000 miles. AND, they were brilliantly fun to drive. Yes, they averaged 30-35 MPG. The only improvement modern cars have over them is the large reduction in ROUTINE maintenance. Otherwise, those little guys were perfect automobiles for me.

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
AChoiredTaste.com

 

Ah, but you actually comprehend the difference between maintenance and repair, and the relationship between the two. That's rare.

Many drivers conflate it all together. Any situation where they have to take it in, spend time, thought or money on it = mark against reliability for that car by that owner. Under those metrics a car can appear twice as 'reliable' just by being designed to need half as many oil changes.

 

I know a few Tesla owners. Almost all buy into it because it's 'cool'...and not even necessarily because of the electric aspect. Other selling points are performance ( at the price of efficiency ) and the autopilot. And Teslas are NOT necessarily as efficient as one might think. For instance, the MPGe is 130 for the model 3...but quite a bit lower for other models. Guess what? The prime beats it. Add to the fact that nearly everyone drives these like sports cars and the MPGe is a bit misleading. I also wonder what the long term battery life will be like.

And when I debate them on points like these...it's like debating a cult member ( no joke here either ). Umm..sort of like here .

Don't get me wrong...I think Tesla has a good thing going. However, it just doesn't work for me yet.

 

Long term battery life on Tesla's has been well established. Google it to find spreadsheets.

Also, you somehow left out the Model 3 in your efficiency comparisons. Of course the Model S isn't going to be as efficient, it's almost 5000 pounds.

 

Corrected above...the Prime does beat the Model 3 (although just barely)....which is what I meant.

 

These are performance cars. They aren't meant to be efficient. The Mirai was probably designed to be efficient, but people don't spend $50k or so for Camry driving performance. Now Tesla did work on efficiency because that directly effects range.

The Prime to Model S is not a like comparison. The S starts at around $75k and goes into six figures. The cars in that price range that approach its performance are FSPs. The BMW 7 series ICE combined MPG range from 19 to 24. The PHEV is 27mpg and 64mpge.
Gas Mileage of 2018 BMW 7 Series

The performance was needed to sell these high margin cars. Without it, Telsa wouldn't have gotten to where they are now. A cheap, long range BEV was technically not possible when they started.