Toyota Owners Jump Ship to Tesla

and of course, some hybrid owners are moving to plug ins (the title of this thread) expanding the plug in market, but not the overall alt fuel market as much.

 

The car makers won't know til they try, to see if advertising will sell more electrified cars. Advertising is more than just putting up a price on the screen and yelling, "Buy, buy, buy!!" You have to DEMO benefits, and change minds about what is sexy in cars.
Humor helps a lot too.
Most of the people I talk to think of electrified cars as Dork cars, or "Clown Cars". You just ain't gonna sell a lot of cars with that image. These guys need to take lessons from the long ago VW advertising that turned a turd into a desirable car through humor. EVs are not turds, but they do have a poor image among the ignorant masses!!

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AChoiredTaste.com

 

I'll agree, the demo is important. The last 3 cars I bought were all heavily influenced by de-facto demos resulting from renting. I travel a lot for work and this means renting a lot of cars. Sometimes I get one I like, and like enough to buy one for myself. I might not have been open to a hybrid had I not previously rented one by random assignment.

I remember wishing that the rented prius had been more similar to traditional cars in a few ways. I recall thinking that it felt a little bit schizophrenic- so much effort had been done to make it work like any other car, but then they went back afterward and found ways to call attention to the differences. Cognitively I understand the benefits of hybrid power, but I'm really not interested in drawing extra attention to it. To put it another way, I'm advocating stealth hybrid. Lose the badges and the animated scoreboard display and let the cost-per-mile speak for itself. We ditched the factory stereo within the first week of owning our new c.

I have to admit, the Prius jokes in "The Other Guys" left me in stitches even though it was mostly at Toyota's expense. But I do think you're right, a funny campaign would be the right type of campaign. DDB worked some real magic with the Beetle.

I guess I would expect that after 2 decades of selling hybrids they would be working in other areas now- getting current owners to trade in sooner to increase the supply of used hybrids on the market, for example. That would (eventually) increase the supply of experienced hybrid mechanics, which would help flesh out the support network and increase consumer confidence. I think there are plenty of people who would consider a hybrid if they felt they would get a typical-to-good used car experience out of it.

 

If that is the plan to reduce congestion, then take a foot off all cars. The increased SUV sales are Tahoes and Sequias like people are acting. They are Equinox and Rav4s. The Camry is 9 inches longer than the Rav4.

Are you going to claim when Toyoda decided to branch out into cars from sewing machines that their first cars weren't all new parts?

Toyota is far older than 20 years; they predate WW2. They have dozens of car and truck models for sale, and counting the various configurations those models come in, we are looking at hundreds of products. You are comparing the processes for that to a small start up that only sells 3 models.

Even with just the three, not every Tesla model is a whole new design. The S and X share components. So will the Y with the 3 when it arrives. The Semi will be using the motors and batteries from the 3. The rear motor of performance trims is the same as the one used for RWD ones. The battery packs are already modular, since Tesla offered multiple sizes since the S.

The 3 doesn't use the same motors as the S for the same reason Toyota doesn't put the V6 from the Avalon into a Corolla.

Batteries are quickly improving. It's why we can have a Prime today, which isn't using the cells of PiP. So the Model 3 is taking advantage of that, and part of the improvement is cost. The S and X are sticking with the older cells. It ain't broken, right?

As for repair costs, aluminum is going to cost more than steel to fix. Today's F150 is going to cost more to fix body damage than the past steel models. High strength, boron steel also costs more than steel to fix. All car designs are making more use of that. Carbon fiber costs even more to fix. The Prime makes use of all those materials. Other cars are going to increase the amount of those materials used in order to reduce car weight for fuel economy and emissions. As for Tesla door handles, who much do OEM parts for Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus cost?

Tesla has struggled with Model 3 production, but they are improving and learning. The Ford Motor Company wasn't Henry Ford's first company, nor was the Model T the first car he made.

Aren't you aware that hybrid sales are only maybe 2.5% percent of car sales in the US? That's with more models over a wide range of prices to chose from than EVs. They broke 3% back during the gas price spike. Prius sales have been dropping for the past 3 years.

Which is why some of those large makers are planning EV SUVs and crossovers.

Dealerships don't want EVs because their primary income isn't car sales, but servicing ICEs.

That's fine, but demand doesn't start to grow without someone being first

Anyone following Tesla knows this. No new car company has a chance at succeeding by starting in the mainstream car segments. The initial capital investment is too high for that level of production, and the profits too low.
Teslas are outselling their ICE competitors, and the lower priced plug ins.

The ICE is going to stick around as a range extender, until fuel cells can be practically refueled.

 

they would be working in new area's, if there were money in it. but they are doing a lot of r&d.

 

Oh and would it kill Toyota to make a fire... er, lightning-breathing honest performance version of the Prius?? Don't bury it in the butter-and-mayonnaise-sandwich-on-white-with-crusts-cut-off sterile mediocrity of the Lexus line. Maybe even bring back the Supra name.

Make sure there's a TRD badge on it somewhere, and back that with actual performance accessory availability. Make sure the paint palette doesn't include silver or metallic gray. Bold, fast & raw, priced for the young (and lucky, anyway)

Why?

It's obvious to me that much of the appeal of the Tesla is in raw acceleration. Some of its loudest proponents love what happens when they mash the skinny pedal and they don't stop talking about it. Toyota can get some of that if they want.

 

yes it would. prius is designed to reduce emissions primarily. it is not a dodge or vw.

 

You see no benefit in reducing the emissions of performance cars? I really do think Tesla is selling well because they combined good acceleration with zero emissions.

 

Ah yes my friend, however, I'm focused on the daily morning and evening commutes, where 90% of the cars I see are single passenger, regardless of size. The other thing we should do is remove semis and large trucks from freeways at rush hour. This was apparently done by Mayor Bradley during the last Olympics held in LA. Also encouraging HIGHER speed limits (controversial) during rush hour would remove cars more quickly from the freeways. My original bottom line is, reducing vehicle size on roads would allow more cars on the road, and at least initially, improve traffic flow. Right now we're compounding our increasing traffic problem (caused by increasing volume) by putting fatter and fatter vehicles on the road.

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AChoiredTaste.com

 

i think tesla is a different ballgame. you can get a hycam with better acceleration. honda has tried several times with handling and acceleration, but the market shrugged.

 

Looks like you need to take a step back into Toyota's past when it started selling cars in the U.S in 1957. At the time American cars where better made as many of the first Toyota's sold in the U.S had quality and reliablity issues that stalled and over heated. That all changed when Dr. William Edwards Deming traveled to Japan to teach Japanese business excutives on Total Quality Control durning the TWI (Training-With-Industry). Deming approached Shoichiro Toyoda to help fix Toyota's quality control problems. Taking what Toyota learned from Deming lead to the development of the Just-In-Time created by Taiichi Ohno. The Just-In-Time Production system has became the Toyota Production System. With Deming's teachings, focused on Kazien "continuous improvement" and eliminating waste and defective products. Toyota continued on the tradition by continuously make small incerment changes to it's existing designs instead of started from scratch on a new design each time a new model is released. That eliminates cost in new reach and development, cost in designing new parts, waste on new development, reduction on compromising reliability and quality. That's why you see many Toyota models using the same drive trains for many generations of different model cars that comes out. Like I mentioned with the late Model 4Runner still using the same drive train from the 2002 4Runner. If it ain't broke don't fix it. That's where Kaizen comes to play making small improvements to the existing engine design. Other manufacturers just design a whole new engine on each generation model. Toyota is a company not to risk on compromising reliability and quality for what it's known for, that's why alot of it's models seemed a base level with very few Electronic Gizmos. The more fancy complex electronic gizmos that's unncessary and impratical, the greater effect on reliability problems. That's where Tesla is headed with all those planned obsolescence gizmos that will turn those cars into money pit machines like a Mercedes. Tesla's philosophy is significantly different from Toyota given that Toyota use to own a stake of Tesla before dumping it. Toyota puts emphasis on Quality and they do it very well as I don't think any one can touch TPS as they are known to have the best quality control in the industry that every one is trying to copy. Tesla fixes defects and problems last after the car was built, Toyota inspects for defects durning assymbly before the entire car is put together. Tesla is like a software company, put out cars in volume numbers forcing consumers into warranty repairs to fix the issues. They are essentially half backed products out the door each time like a beta tester. Tesla has full Monopoly on parts as they make virutally everything in house, almost of it's electrical systems with the exception of batteries provided by Panasonic.

14, not 3, is a Magic Number for Dr. Deming and Toyota – Lean Blog

Tesla hasn't made any profit gains. It's barley surving as they are losing money on each model 3 they make due to it's inefficient Manufacturing system.

 

This illustrates my point you seem to have missed. As a company, the Toyota car company is over 80 years old. It was nearly 25 when it started following Deming's teachings. Comparing the Toyota of today, with its decades of growth, investment, and partnerships to Tesla is not a like comparison. You even admitted that Toyota's early products weren't the best. How about their very first first cars and trucks?

Tesla should have done a better job on their homework for larger scale production, but that doesn't make them guilty of the things you claim they are. They are perfectly fine working with outside suppliers. Remember the Roadster. That was essentially a Lotus with a Tesla drive train. The design goals of the S/X meant cutting weight, so aluminum was chosen for the body.

How many manufacturers have experience making full aluminum unibodies? Honda did it briefly with the first Insight; not a mass produced vehicle. Range Rover started making such unibodies not too long ago. The F150 is not a unibody, and by the time the aluminum one arrives, over a 100,000 Model S's have been sold worldwide. There probably wasn't anybody they could turn too for it. Besides they have a huge factory that Toyota wanted to dump. It would be inefficient to not use it.

If their cars actually do end up money pits like Mercedes, well no one is crying that Mercedes is going to go under. Even with the issues, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction rating Consumer Reports has. Fine if you don't want a Tesla. You just likely would be waiting longer for a BEV from Toyota without them.

Tesla botched it with initial Model 3 production. They are improving, and heading towards profitability for the model. The problem wasn't in inefficiency, but in their assumption on how much they could automate. If they had been right, the line would have been more efficient than Toyota's.

The cries of Tesla losing money and heading to fail started long before the Model 3. The reports were simply based upon gross money in and money out. The authors didn't know, or wanted their readers to not know, that the money was not being lost, but being invested in capital; the factories and Superchargers. We've already heard these predictions of doom.

 

The repetition isn't as obvious sometimes though. I was attacked relentlessly on GM forums when pointing out the pattern Volt was following. It was the same disaster as Two-Mode playing out again. GM was focusing heavily on size & power again. Only this time, the measure of "size" was range rather than physical dimension. GM sacrificed affordability then and was repeating it for gen-1 Volt. Then then did it yet again with gen-2 Volt. Now, we are witnessing that same obsession with Bolt.

Ironically, that "size" issue will be the center of attention yet again. GM will finally have to deliver a plug-in their own loyal customers will actually be interested in purchasing... a SUV. Imagine trying to squeeze 53 miles of capacity into an Equinox. It's just plain not realistic. This is why we don't see any advertising of gen-2 Volt. Each time the cycle repeats, they move back the goal-posts.

We'll see a more modest design... all those who absolutely insisted more was needed and that Toyota's approach wasn't enough would have vanished. It is a reset... which they will likely make the same mistakes, yet again.

 

I'm in no hurry to buy an EV when the market barley exist. The big auto makers have plenty of time to produce EVs here in the U.S as its not like EVs are going to blow up in 5 years and make ICE obsolete any time soon. Norway and China has a much larger market for EV's which is why Toyota is not interested in producing EV's for the U.S market just yet. There isn't significant demand yet when America is buying pickups, sports cars and crossovers.

This Is What $30,000 Of Damage Looks Like On A Tesla Model S | Gas 2

Using Aluminum materials just drives up the cost for body damage repairs. Just fixing a scratch cost thousands. Like I said about the taking a baseball bat with a couple of whacks can total the car in seconds. Overall Tesla's are outrageously expensive cars to fix out of warranty for the 2nd hand used car market. No independent shops would service them with the exception of select shops that do body repairs as they don't have the proper training or experience to work on them. I like to keep my cars forever as these cars are basically designed like iphones. I'm putting all my bets on Toyota to mass produce a simple reliable EV vehicle for the mass market backed by it's 21 years of experience in building Hybrid electric vehicles when demand is significant enough to compete. Mercedes makes most of its profits from service repairs and selling parts as majority of its luxury vehicles are leased. They may be satisfied because the car is still under "warranty". Just think once something breaks out of warranty, would you be satisfied to flip the bill on a large repair bill? Some people have already had to pay out pocked that got hit big time like the guy with his rear half shafts going out. Clunking sound is costing me a bundle to fix out of warranty | Tesla Motors Club

• 17 inch screen Media Control Unit about a $2,700-$3,800
• Center Touchscreen: Blank Screen of Death
• Battery back replacement $12,000
• Tesla Model S 85kw Battery Replacement Cost
• Drive unit replacement. $6,000
• Cost of Drive Unit Replacement?
• Electronic door handle replacement $800-$1,000 each
• Door Handle Replacement
• DC-DC converter $2,500-$2,600
• 12V battery issue, service wants to replace DC-DC converter
• Heater System $3,000-$3,500
• Heater stopped working
• On-board charger $2,300
• Costly Replacement Charger, after 50,000 miles.
• A/C Compressor replacement $3,400
• A/C Compressor finally failed. But $3400??!
• TrueDelta | 2013 Tesla Model S electrical Problems
• Tesla Model S Reliability at TrueDelta: Real-world reliability data
• Tesla Model X Reliability at TrueDelta: Real-world reliability data
• Holy crap, repairs are insanely expensive, beware!!

 

Hallelujah, ma brother!! Power to the People (with low emissions!!). Yeah that be my thing!! Now, can we make it affordable?! You may call me a dreamer...!! Har, har Bring back the FUN!

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AChoiredTaste.com

 

I just priced out your 2018 Prime Advanced. The base price is $34K. That gets you 25 miles electric plus the annual cost of gasoline, whatever you might spend, plus oil changes, etc. The base price of a Tesla model 3 (with many more standard features than the Prime Advanced) is $35K with 220 mile range and no annual cost of gasoline or oil changes. What is not affordable about that?

 

Comparing a fully loaded model to a base is the first step in greenwash efforts. Don't go there.