Featured Tesla's latest competition in making efficient truck to crisscross country: Big Oil

Let's think about the problems with big rig truck diesel engines, and it becomes obvious that phev could help long haul. These beast are big, and heavy, to provide the torque needed.


MP7 Semi Truck Engine | Mack Trucks

The Extraordinary Engine Configurations of 18-Wheelers

And we come up with between 11L-15L weighing 2000-3000 lbs.

A Tesla 161 kwh pack weighs (double the model 3 pack) approximately 2100 lbs and provides all the power you need. If you took that camry engine and added two more cyclinders, and perhaps made it a compacted graphite block, we are at about 300 hp - 3.75 L 600 lb engine, plenty for steady state, and much lower polluting than diesels before emissions controls. Add some weight for the motors, reduce some for the simplified transmission, and we get to about 3000 lbs well within the standard 18 wheeler truck engine catagory. You could also use something like a small efficient diesel engine or better yet a skyactiv-x with turbo charging plus electronic supercharging.

If we assume 2 miles/kwh it would only be able to cover 60 miles on battery alone assuming 80% usable SOC, so maybe you make the battery bigger. It should also be able to be very efficient on the highway for long haul with lower maintenance.

 

Maybe you've never been stuck - crawling up California's Infamous Grapevine, behind some trucker who pulled out of the slow lane to pass an even slower diesel truck that was only doing maybe 18mph so that the lighter truck could do a whopping 20mph.
Yea . . . please provide a link (when you find one), of a diesel truck pulling the max 80,000Lb load - getting up to 60mph in only 20seconds (& deadheading 0-60 in just 5 seconds) as the Tesla semi does. Never mind how much cleaner & cheaper maintenance is on electric, much less fuel costs .... & good luck explaining away how ignorant all those major companies are, making pre-orders for hundreds of these long-range electric haulers.
Even though the Tesla semi cost more, why do you think Airlines spend hundreds of Millions for new jet Fleet? because of the millions of miles they travel, they pay for themselves in an acceptable amount of time over the life of the transportation. Watch the videos in the link, & be amazed at the unloaded and loaded acceleration.
It’s hard to believe the Tesla Semi can accelerate this fast while hauling a trailer – BGR

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What does "being stuck" or your story about light trucks going 20mph have anything to do with my post? What about the pollution or cost equivalents to produce those extremely large truck batteries? (Not really that clean for the environment, not yet. Diesel emissions are becoming stricter in Europe anyway.) And an international 747 flight can use 30,000 gallons of jet fuel in one flight, so, how does your description of airlines relate to my point about offloading different tasks between a (smaller) battery and the diesel in trucks?

 

simple! .... But I'll try and say it even more simpler. the reason the diesel is going so slooowww up a grade, compared to tesla semi's capability, is because it can create even MORE torque then the diesel. The reason the slow slow trucks plodding along the highway, uphill, only traveling at speeds in the teens, is because their performance is piss POOR compared to the tesla semi. 20mph uphill .... equals SLOOOWWW diesel.
0-60mph in 20 seconds? pulling 80,000Lbs? equals diesel killer. That's about as simple as it can be stated. YOU said the diesel tractor has more torque. Simply put? Wrong. WATCH the videos if that explanation is not simple enough. That's why the link was provided.

hoo boy -
Whoever told you ev batteries were dirty, as though they are either not recyclable, or inherently near impossible to manufacture in an environmentally acceptable manner, was blowing diesel smoke, i fear, up someone's nether region. But all is not lost! Try to provide one link showing contrary and then you'll realize whoever told you that story had some kind of vested interest in the fossil fuel industry. Yep, you've been hoodwinked apparently.

that's great for europe ... & once - and if they ever the get 10x cleaner, how far will they still be behind an EV's traction pack? especially if recharged off solar or wind power?

New Jets relate thusly; a diesel semi is less expensive than the Tesla semi. Similarly - a new Fleet of jets is MUCH more expensive, like the Tesla semi, up front. But the reason the industry is clamoring for BOTH (tesla semis & more efficient jets) is because BOTH, despite the initial upfront expensive costs will see the huge savings advantage during their life expectancy. Anyone who simply does their own reading can discover this for their self.
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maybe 80,000 lbs load plus the wt. of the Tractor and trailer. Not quite the same as the Prius.

 

That’s exactly the problem with California, downhill portions far exceed uphill. That’s why we are going to hell.

 

>Whoever told you ev batteries were dirty...was blowing diesel smoke

No, I do NOT think that whoever was telling me that they were dirty was blowing any smoke, and your arrogant sarcasm is NOT appreciated.

Let's compare to a conventional diesel truck that, over its life, gets 6 mpg. Using a scale-down model:
Calculating a car’s CO2 emissions from its mpg | ETA

After being driven 100,000 miles, that means 2x10^5 kg of CO2 are generated from the engine.

Compare to a the battery (since I can't find data on his article states that emissions of 150 to 200 kg of CO2 equivalent are generated, already in the factory, per kWh.
New Study: Large CO2 Emissions From Batteries Of Electric Cars | Climate Depot

So, for a 100D Tesla, that means 2x10^4 kg of CO2.

And for the Tesla Semi at a 500 mile range:
What is the TRUE COST of a Tesla Semi? - Teslanomics

It's estimated to be 1000 kWh, so, that means, 2x10^5 kg of CO2 to produce.

One would need a bigger battery for a truck to go more than 500 miles. That means more than 2x10^5 kg of CO2 to produce.

But who cares at this point since apparently we can make big diesel trucks that get 13 mpg instead of 6 mpg?

So, based on those numbers and currently-available battery production technology, we're right back to about same (or worse) emissions than we would have with a diesel.

So, once again, my major concern is STILL that a big truck battery that gets at or over 500 miles would require more CO2 pollution to make than the all-diesel equivalent up to 100,000 miles.

And that's why, I still disagree with your reasoning, I still think that a hybrid makes more sense for the time being.

And to back that point up more, we can make big diesel trucks that get 13 mpg... well, why not 20 mpg if we make it into a hybrid system (using brake regen, plug-in, solar, etc.)? Just make a 100 kWh battery instead of a 1000 kWh battery for the truck, and still gives you instant torque (throw all the 0-60 figures you want... actually a smaller battery would be lighter so that would give even better 0-60 time.)

 

You are probably thinking about the Swedish study:
https://www.ivl.se/download/18.5922281715bdaebede9559/1496046218976/C243+The+life+cycle+energy+consumption+and+CO2+emissions+from+lithium+ion+batteries+.pdf

Caution as this study has a number of problems:
Swedish EV Battery Study Sucks | CleanTechnica

When the Prius 'was a thing,' there was an infamous "Dust-to-Dust" report by CMW Marketing that claimed a Hummer had lower emissions per mile than the Gen-2 Prius. There was also a Sunday Mail article claiming Prius nickel had eviscerated Sudbury Canada. Like the old tobacco studies that claimed smoking was good for you or the VW study that their 'clean diesels' were harmless to lab primates, these studies seem to suffer from major, often contradictory claims.

I give 'The Union of Concerned Scientist' credibility:

• Life Cycle Electric Vehicle Emissions (2015) | Union of Concerned Scientists
  
• Electric Vehicles: Just How Green Are They? | Union of Concerned Scientists
  
• 
  Gasoline vs Electric—Who Wins on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions? We Found Out - Union of Concerned Scientists
  

I agree that efficiency is important, especially in transportation so I'm glad to see improvements regardless of motive source. Personally, I would like to see automated 'platooning' like the Army experiments.

Bob Wilson

 

1st, CO2 is NOT even recognized as pollution by many despite what you & i may think.
2nd, between NOX, particulate, etc which diesel is KNOWN to spew, why hang your hat entirely on CO2, when you can more rightly be concerned over the known, TRUE, agreed on damages .... like billion$ in respiratory/health damage, & billion$ in military cost assuring mid east control, billion$ in toxic/environmental damage ah la Valdez / deep water BP gulf spills, fracking, non-renewable depletion etc.
CO2 via battery manufacturing? really? Oh! i forgot! Manufacturing a diesel block, crank, heads, tranny, crank case. oil, the 1,000's of gallons of diesel used DAILY for just getting across country hauling - 1 rig .... etc ... that is CO2 free? .... is all that made from children's laughter & sunshine!?

Forgive my dry humor - but the fact that there are reads that skew battery manufacturing CO2 dust to dust quantity, while discounting ALL life cycle costs of non-renewable burners - is a fool's game. Most importantly - the so called 'research' is frequently funded by the industries that have the most to loose. The dino based manufacturers see the writing on the wall, & hope to forstall. Unlike running a battery, Diesels can NEVER run down the road, as economically - much less, pollution & CO2 free as the batter semi intends to.

Fact is, the tesla plan will eventually include not even using clean - CO2 free- natural gas turbine driven - utility company electricity. Rather, solar electric & with electricity surpluses stored in battery backups.
Elon Musk says all Superchargers will run on solar and battery power

First look at Tesla’s new kind of Supercharger with solar arrays and owners lounge | Electrek

Now THAT's truly clean. As for torque? So ... Now it's, "nevermind 0-60 time differences"? Ok ..... but you WERE the one claiming how much better diesel is, re torque. So, that will be presumed to be conceded.

As for Shell Oil throwing together a hybrid semi? A tru hail Mary ... tossing out something - anything - to assure their stranglehold on the power industry. Like Bob said above .... funny it took the tesla semi birth before big oil would finally crap a better ride - wven tho the tech has been available for 1½ decades +.
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Then why is CO2 such a big deal? Why, for example, Al Gore go through so much trouble to come out with An Inconvenient Truth in 2004 if CO2 wasn't such a big deal back then?

Really!
New Study: Large CO2 Emissions From Batteries Of Electric Cars | The Global Warming Policy Forum (GWPF)
There you go.

I NEVER said that diesel was CO2 free! WHERE DID I SAY THAT? In fact, IF you read my post, I CLEARLY stated that an estimate of 100,000 miles of diesel would generate 200,000 kg of CO2. You're putting words in my mouth that I did not say and did not imply.

Also,

No, I NEVER said "diesel gives better torque." You FALSELY implied that I said that TWICE when I NEVER said that.

Humor my arse. It's condescending arrogant sarcasm, and it's NOT funny and downright insulting

Ignoring the rest of your post because you're wrong, you're making false assertions about what I said, and you were extremely rude to me.

 

I remember something like that from a few years ago, I couldn't find the article but yes I remember seeing pictures of Canada "wasteland" due to nickel toxicity. And I do try to look for more current values and "debunked" myths before I cite my numbers. Regardless, it doesn't matter at this point because of the transition to Li-ion (and presumably Mg-ion/graphene in the future).

 

those of us who've been around long enough remember how vile the oil - petrochemical industry truly is. Best example comes from the archives when large format (25ampHr) NiMH batteries during early 21st century, were the threat to the business as usual oil industry.

Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia

'patent sitters' ... You mean like buying up Leading Edge Tech so that it can retard electric vehicle growth? Funny that the oil industry would want to buy a large format Battery Tech and never use it, despite the industry's need.

So yea ... sure ... Shell's interest are all about the environment.
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ahhhh! Putting words in my mouth? That's ok ...

no - by saying, "it doesn't matter what you or i think" - regarding CO2 - that simply says let's consider the worst of worst pollution. Why? because if you altogether STOP burning non-renewables, colaterally, the CO2 byproduct stops too.

ok - you're right. However when you wrongly say diesel is more efficient (reread, & that is what you wrote) what you are saying in essence is that per unit of energy/fuel, it would have more torque, because the dynamics of torque, hp, & efficiency are inextricably linked.
Example? A diesel may be 36%-46% efficient. So ½ of the energy/heat may be unused.
Electric motor will run anywhere between 50%-100% efficient, turning on application. So ... per UNIT of supplied energy/fuel - between the less efficient motor/engine guess which one produces less torque. Similarly, if one produces more torque per unit of fuel/energy, guess which one is more efficient.
That's as soft as I think anyone can put it, so - no intent to hurt anyone's feelings. Sorry that i did.
peace & love
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Fair enough, I appreciate your understanding. Yes I did (initially) assert my perspective on battery efficiency, which I am reconsidering.

 

Diesel & Tesla semi fun facts:

Average diesel tractor trailer fuel economy is 6MPG.
It's getting better.

Newer/Efficient diesel semi 10 MPG

Diesel fuel contains ~37.8kWh of energy.

Early Tesla semi tests show the tractor trailer's fuel economy is nearly 2kWh/mile (Musk says later tests looking even better)

Back of the napkin, that would represent about a 50% improvement on efficiency.

Fuel cost difference?
(increasingly) lower sulfer diesel $3/gallon ......
$3 for 19kWh?
(½ of diesel energy lost via inefficiency) might represent electric power costing 16¢/kwh to be on par w/ Diesel fuel costs.

Wouldn't a MegaCharger build-out / delivery charges necessarily need to be at a magnitude of 4X higher? Maybe 65¢/kWh?

Seems like Diesel maintenance costs would have to be steep in order to offset tesla semi electricity costs.

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2kwh/mile is around 17 mpge (gasoline energy at 33.7 kwh)

efficiency is a fickle beast. Are we talking miles/$, well to wheel energy, energy from the plug or pump. Daimler has a prototype diesel hybrid that will get 12.2 mpg (diesel) @65 mph.
Futuristic 'SuperTruck' doubles the MPG of other semis
Freightliner SuperTruck

They could be making this truck in a few years. The US program to produce it had batteries costing more than they do now, yeah for those non big batteried hybrid trucks 10 mpg is probably good guess.

If you figure 120,000 miles a year on a long haul truck. Wait these aren't long haul. Maybe 60,000 miles is better. I'm not sure how much a megacharger costs, or how long it would work, but 4x higher is probably not a real cost. Say you have 10 trucks @ 60,000 miles that is 600K miles. @10MPG diesel @$3.50/gallon that's about $210K/year.
Tesla is in talks with electric truck customers to install ‘Megacharger’ stations, report says | Electrek
Say a company needs to post something towards building the megachargers, but they charge 7 cents/kwh that is $84K/year as long as that upfront cost is low enough companies will save on power. The things aren't made for long haul though, for that the aerocyanamic fraigtliner makes a good argument if they can build it and sell it for $200K or less.

What is the Real Cost of Operating a Commercial Truck in the USA?

 

Here are the output files from the latest version of Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model (GREET_2017). This is the well-to-wheels emissions of the Diesel Combination Long-Haul Trucks:




GREET does not include the WTW emissions of a BEV version. However, there are WTW emissions of diesel and BEV versions of transit buses for rough comparisons: