Battery issues with 50% loss after 2 years

iirc, Volt arrived in 2010 ... ie 1st phev ?

.

 

Late 2010 for Volt sales.

Mid 2010 for Prius PHV consumer testing.

 

Leaf drivers were doing that, and a few got replacements (from what I read, only the most obvious cases). The replacement packs aren't too too expensive at $5400 (compared to a Tesla pack which is like 10x as much, but probably cheaper now)..

 

WAAAY cheaper now ...
UNGODLY cheaper now ....
Per kWh, it's about the same.
$5,400 for a 21kWh Nissan pack means it costa you ~$2.57 per Wh.
Now you get 80 mile range.

$20,000 for 90kWh Tesla pack (that's WITH core *upgrading* from 75kWh to 90kWh) means it costs you ~$2.22 per watt hr.
Now you get 250 mile range back, AND an EXTRA 30 miles!

80 miles? You'd pay ~$67/mile
280 miles? You'd pay ~$71/mile

5yrs later, the Nissan may have 65 range left
5yrs later, the Tesla may have 260 miles left.
So who's to say which price is the better bargain.
.

 

Good description, but it omits the differences in pack longevity until a replacement is needed
LEAF: every 5-8 years (60k/1000k miles) depending on the warranty for each model
Tesla: Uncertain, but looking like 10-15 years and unlimited miles

The rapid degradation of the LEAF pack makes it a very expensive choice.
And by the way, call the 21 kWh LEAF pack $6,0000 unless you are going to self-install ;-)

Lastly, I know you were normalizing to cost/mile but on a kWh basis the Tesla pack is 20/6 more expensive but you get 90/21 more kWh. So on a $/kWh basis Nissan is 1.28x more expensive and has a much, much inferior pack. If I conservatively figure that a Tesla pack has half the degradation rate as a LEAF (though 3x is probably closer to the mark,) then the LEAF pack is ~ 2.5x more expensive per kWh.

 

is it a competition? if so, game over. if not, i was simply correcting the o/p who thought prime was toyota's first rodeo.

 

EREV

 

That reminded me didn't you used to have a variation of the first rodeo phrase as part of your signature?

 

Excuse the shouting. In some cases, it is valuable to make sure an essential understanding is conveyed with importance...

THE COMPETITION IS OTHER VEHICLES ON THE DEALER'S SHOWROOM FLOOR, NOT OFFERINGS FROM OTHER AUTOMAKERS.

There is always competition. It is a presence that should go without saying and the who is obvious. That misunderstanding of purpose & audience was fundamental mistake enthusiasts of Volt made.

It was absolutely vital that GM shifted from conquest sales to drawing interest from their own loyal customers well in advance of the tax-credits expiring. That subsidy was provided with the intent of changing mainstream purchase preference; instead, we saw it squandered fro the sake of feeding pride. This has become a modern example of unintended consequences, when an effort to promote change results in a massive waste of opportunity.

Consider what shoppers see when they go to a GM dealer to shop for a vehicle to replace their aged GM vehicle with. Nothing became of the "EREV" marketing. Volt remained a small & expensive niche vehicle. Bolt emerged as expensive choice, undesirable without tax-credit incentives. The commitment to endorse guzzling Pickups & SUVs is obvious.

Consider what shoppers see when they go to a Toyota dealer. There is a variety of affordable hybrid choices with the first plug-in hybrid priced with a choice of affordability and some enticing package options. The commitment to shift away from traditional vehicles is obvious.

Understand why the shouting was necessary?

 

a rose by any other name ....

EDIT
oh .... and on the topic of the volt, doesn't GM also put it in their plugin system in Cadillac? Seems I read up on a caddy plugin system bigger than the volts' system. I believe the whole car is made in China, & they don't have big sales #'s because GM unfortunately didn't import many of them. Seems like a really slick setup with lots of high-end features.
.

 

Correct and we look forward to someday GM offering something that won't actually be high-end.

The kerfuffle with Volt was simple discussion topics... just like this... weren't taken seriously because it was struggling with sales so much. The enthusiasts would distort anything related to the other plug-in choices to keep understanding of design a mystery. That way, the shortcomings of Volt wouldn't get in the way of propaganda.

We saw the same thing play out with diesel. It's easy to see the problem now, long after evidence has been collected. But while there was lots at play, those efforts to deceive were quite effective. People didn't know enough then to connect the dots.

Think about how little most people understand about plug-in vehicles still.

 

They had the ELR, which had the Volt drivetrain and now, they have the CT6 plug-in, which is a RWD model and a bit larger.

 

i have no idea hoe you folks got here from post #13, it's almost like someone's have an agenda.
it's called a thread, try to keep up people!

 

Sorry, wrong units:

I've had my Prius Prime since December 2016 and if anything, I'm seeing a slight increase in battery capacity from ~25 mi range to ~27.5 mi per charge.

Bob Wilson

 

@Tideland, are you sure the chemistry is different between the Prime and the Hatchback? During the university teardown of the Prime battery the narrator said the Prime used several standard Prius battery modules. Mechanical design the same but chemistry different?

I'm referring to the video that was link posted to this forum.

 

Actually even in Southern California there were a good number of Leaf's that needed replacement. I have one that spent it's time in SoCal, and had very little DC quick charges. The battery lasted 4 years and 11 months. The new battery should last a little longer since the chemistry is different now. The problem is most likely heat related, however does not need extreme heat.

 

Back on topic!

Bob,
An increase in 'Battery Capacity' is not possible.
The nature of a Li-Ion battery pack is to only Degrade in capacity with time and use.
And the environment it lives in effects lifetime. This is why a fully functional TMS for the pack can extend the life of the pack.
Leafs and Primes do not have this.

What you are seeing is the Guess-O-Meter (GOM) displaying its guess at the range you might get today if you drive the same way you have been lately.
It has no way of knowing that today you will load up 4 of your fattest friends and head up the mountain at highway speeds with the heat on High.
In that scenario you'd get less than half of what the GOM is predicting.

 

True but we're all using ad hoc metrics versus having a uniform temperature and lab test equipment. I've long suspected Toyota 'sandbags' (i.e., under reports) their car performance so I wasn't terribly disturbed to find I keep getting more miles. After 13 years of Prius driving habits, I may be a little more efficient having learned to use "N" and cruise control to manage car speed. Also, I live in a temperate area where there is frequently a 30F (16C) temperature change over any daily temperatures: Chaffee Area Weather | Personal Weather Station: KALHUNTS150 by Wunderground.com | Weather Underground .

I really don't know the pack temperature on any given trip and that along with vehicle configuration and operator (error) gives a certain randomness to the results. Yet self-censor of my metrics removes one data point in a sampling.

Regardless, I'll think about what we can do to generate reproducible, battery metrics. I can't guarantee a solution but it is an interesting problem for a retired engineer.

Bob Wilson

 

I understand that lots of PHEV's just don't give the driver data on actual battery capacity. No new is good news?
Does your i3 display anything useful?

My little BEV displays % Used and kWh used. Doing the math gives Pack Capacity. But it varies.
I occasionally put these figures into an .xls and plot it over many drives.
I only plot drives where I used >70% of capacity.

Here's an example;
Mileage - Date - % Used - kWh used - Present Capacity kWh - % of Original Capacity
33051 - 3-23-17 - 87% - - - - - 15.2 - - - - - - 17.47 - - - - - - - - - - - - 90%
(.xls does not copy/paste correctly)

Also, I don't have a hard figure on what the claimed pack size was when new, so the '% of Orig' is only close.
I'm at 51k miles now and I haven't plotted in a while. But my GOM is back to within 5 miles of the EPA claim.
Got to love Spring !!
And I don't hyper... anything. I hang with all my buds in the left lanes of the interstate going 70-80 MPH and often bump the 90 MPH limit.
Electrons are the cheapest way to roll ! (mine are mostly free when I don't plug in at home for TMS reasons.)
Why pinch them?

 

All the most fun people in one outstanding thread!