Featured 2018 Nissan Leaf pricing, power leaked online

My Energi also has a large turning circle (37 IIRC) and that is the biggest driving gripe I have. It can be a real PITA in tight urban zones and parking lots. On one hand if that's my biggest gripe that's a good thing but it's enough of a PITA (that I can't fix) I probably would not buy another.

If the 3's radius is even larger, it will become a much more talked about issue once the newness and early adopter phase passes. It certainly won't become the fav. of delivery drivers like the gen 2 which seems to be able to turn around on a dime in comparison.

 

Have you seen the increase in the hydrogen hoax on are freeways in the OC?! Must all be employees of Toyota, Honda, Mercedes and Hyundai.

 

There are approximately 4000 fcv living and breething in the USA. These are real cars that take real subsidies.

The hoax is in saying subsidize and they will be popular and better. CARB said in 2009 there would be 50,000 by now for less subsidies than are currently given out. Plug ins are greatly more popular with around 3M around the globe versus around 10,000 fcv. The reason CARB said each fcv needed a higher subsidy than plug-ins was because they would sell better and be better for the environment. The fuel cell lobby said that too. That's the hoax. Its not that fuel cells don't work, its that all the hype about efficiency and desirability and low costs are far from reality. Sure if you spend $20B you can have 10,000 fcv. I'm sure with japan's spending for another $20B in subsidies we will get to 50,000 fcv. Its not chicken versus egg, its still even if fuel were free, people wouldn't choose to pay for a fcv.

 

People don't know what an FCV is! Most people don't even know what a Tesla is. Ask the average person on the street if they can look at the back of a Toyota Camry without its name badges, what car it is, and most have no idea and this is the best selling car in America. My point is that Pruis has been around for two decades and Miria is only in its 3rd year. So just because there are not as many on the road, does not discount its ability to be number one in the world. There is room for FCV and EV's to coexist. I know where my money will go.

 

The Prius sold 3000 its first year in Japan. It was still Japan only by its third year, and had sold a total of 33,200 thousand by then.
Toyota Prius - Wikipedia

The Mirai might have sold a few more if there was more infrastructure, but the Tesla Model S has been outselling luxury ICE car competitors, including ones from Lexus. Even for a higher price, there is more value in the Tesla than the Mirai. The Mirai will likely never be able to drive cross country without a refueling truck following it. On top of that, it has the performance of a Prius. People aren't going to pay $50k for a Prius.

Ditch hydrogen, and FCEVs might have a chance.

 

How many people need a car to drive cross country? That's what we have planes for........

 

Nissan Brazil ends initial tests of ethanol fuel cell | Automotive Industry News | just-auto

Agreed, we are doing a disservice to fuel cell technology by forcing it into hydrogen

As Nissan is proving an ethanol fuel cell can use existing fuels and improve fuel economy

No reason a fuel cell couldn’t run methane, CNG, e85 or even gasoline simplifying the “range extender “ reducing emissions and making the gas engine obsolete replacing it with a 52% eff non moving, solid state energy source.

 

And where can a hydrogen car owner fly too and rent another hydrogen car?

I regularly drive 600 miles to my parents with a dog and cat. I can do the trip in a Tesla today. I can't even buy a hydrogen car because there aren't any refueling stations here. The ones that do exist have taken longer and costed more to build.

Where a hydrogen car can be bought, they owner likely will have to rent a car to make a 600 mile trip. They may have to rent one for just a 100 mile trip. Using a BEV for such a trip will have some level of inconvenience over an ICE car, but it can be done. The only places really can't go are places that don't have any electricity.

A Volvo group has a diesel powered FCEV. It is small; meant to replace an APU, or generator, on a sleeper truck. Home fuel cells, and other stationary ones, use natural gas.

 

Toyota has been working on fuel cell vehicles for 25 years, in fact Toyota's first prototype fuel cell vehicle and first prototype Prius were made at the same time. global.com/pages/contents/innovation/intelligent_transport_systems/world_congress/2014detroit/pdf/History_of_Toyota_s_Fuel_Cell.pdf

That's not to say that a test with maybe 50 hydrogen stations in california is a bad idea, or companies shouldn't invest in R&D, but the tact that fuel cell vehicles need to be subsidized a great deal more than plug-ins because people don't want plug-ins is pretty much dead. In 2009 there were supposed to be 50,000 fcv on the road in California by now. Every year the estimate by CARB and the auto makers goes down. Last summer it dropped to 34,000 in 2023. There should be a million plug-ins on american roads by the end of the year.

The idea that fuel cells will be number 1 in the world in the next 3 decades ignores the facts that there are many technical hurdles that make them much less attractive than phevs, hybrids, and bevs. Sure if we go out 30 years maybe there will be breakthroughs, but batteries and engine technology is still improving. Toyota is betting with other people money.

Agree absolutely. But ... one of the reasons fuel cell proponents attack plug-ins is that they take too long to charge on long trips.

Since this is a leaf thread, if the fcv doesn't need long trips, neither should the leaf have to refuel fast on them.

But can it? Mazda should have their skyactiv-x engine out in a couple of years and the mules are getting 44% efficiency (compared to toyota's 2018 camry hybrid's atkinson that is 41%). Skyactiv-3 may get over 50% efficiency, and toyota is partnering with mazda, which means they will have access to the tech. The 2018 camry le hybrid gets 52 mpg, with a skyactiv-x I'm guessing it would get 56 mpg. The most efficient fuel cell vehicle the clarity gets 67 mpge, but there is a catch, an ethanol reformer uses part of the energy and are typically about 80% efficient. That would probably give the fcv a 54 mpge epa figure. The trick will be if they can figure out how to get the system cheaper than a hybrid that uses advanced technology. The benefit of a high tech engine like the skyactiv-x versus a fuel cell + reformer is it can easily run flex fuel and alcohols make it more efficient than straight gasoline. Nissan is using a solid oxide fuel cell which means materials are less expensive than the PEM in the current fuel cell vehicles, but it gets hotter, and it will be tougher to package than the PEM in the clarity. You could use a PEM type fuel cell with a reformer, toyota had one running over a decade ago, but you have that cost issue.

 

When a plug in has an EV range of 50 miles or more, not needing a transmission could make the fuel cell more attractive to car designers than the ICE, even if it means lower efficiency.

I see FCEV cars without a plug becoming only a small percentage of the fleet in the US at most. When the fuel cell and reformer become low enough cost to commercialize, the ICE will likely trump it in a number of areas. Once that gap is closed, most cars will have a plug.