Startup knock...I found another cause....

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by douglasjre, Dec 24, 2017.

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  1. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Recently my prius started knocking on startup as temps here fell to 40F. And it knocks each time the engine starts during use. It sounds so bad you would think it threw a rod.

    Codes were P0300 and P0301. Sometimes I get P0302 as well. No EGR code. Clearing codes reveals sometimes it does not throw a code. So I cleaned the EGR radiator and valve, changed all 4 spark plugs, and moved the ignition coils. #1 went to 4, 4 went to 1, 2 went to 3, and three went to 2. It is important to note that the EGR valve was not at all stuck before cleaning. Problem persists and now a code P0304 comes out. So the problem moved with the coil pack. I ordered one for $15 on Amazon this evening.

    I was a mechanic 20 years ago. I have never seen a bad ignition coil malfunction this way. They would either stop working or not work when hot. But not work for a few seconds at startup? Can this be?
     
    #1 douglasjre, Dec 24, 2017
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how many miles on her? there's definitely a difference from cold soak knock, and what you are experiencing.
     
    #2 bisco, Dec 24, 2017
  3. padroo

    padroo Senior Member

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    Here is a video by the YouTube car electronics guru Scanner Danner, highly respected specializes in automotive electronics. He is also an instructor at Rosedale Technical college in Pittsburgh Pa.

    Video is on 4 wire Toyota CO

     
    #3 padroo, Dec 25, 2017
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  4. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    Did the replaced ignition coil stop the problem?

    If it didn't, I suspe t there might a problem on the ignition coil wiring harness coming from the ECU side, or one of those injectors aren't working properly.


    Dxta
     
    #4 Dxta, Dec 25, 2017
  5. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    I moved coil 1 to the coil 4 position and the code moved with it. An injector problem would do that? New coil on it's way.
     
    #5 douglasjre, Dec 25, 2017
  6. Dxta

    Dxta Senior Member

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    No, definitely wouldn't do that.

    If the misfire moved to the other position, definitely new coils would be needed.

    Good luck
     
    #6 Dxta, Dec 25, 2017
  7. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Replaced coil #4 with $15 item from Amazon and problem solved
     
    #7 douglasjre, Dec 29, 2017
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  8. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Good find! Most people have the other issue/s unfortunately.
     
    #8 frodoz737, Dec 29, 2017
  9. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Now the misfire is gone but I have a P0401 and minimal knocking
    TEST(psi) .1
    MIN(psi) .1
    MAX(psi) 95.0?
    STS Fail
    Exhaust Gas Recirculation flow insufficient detected. It's a Pd DTC.

    How is this possible if it didn't come up before and I cleaned out the EGR cooler and EGR valve? I used compressed air then brake cleaner and compressed air. Pipe cleaned too....
     
    #9 douglasjre, Dec 29, 2017
  10. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

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    Did you clean the intake manifold? There are EGR passages in the manifold that fill up with sludge.

    Pixel XL ?
     
    #10 mjoo, Dec 30, 2017
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  11. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    P0401...Exhaust Gas Recirculation Flow Insufficient Detected
    - EGR valve assembly
    - EGR passage
    - EGR with cooler pipe subassembly
    - Manifold absolute pressure sensor
     
    #11 frodoz737, Dec 30, 2017
  12. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    Coil fails when cold but not when hot... maybe a long shot, but could 12V battery voltage be a little low? Just enough to make the marginal coil fail?
     
    #12 Rebound, Dec 30, 2017
  13. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Right now P0401 and P0301 are coming out. The coil and spark plugs are new. It knocks a little on startup, not as bad as before. I'm ordering an EGR valve and gasket now. Of important note, the valve is not sticking, and removing the balck cover reveals smooth operation of the rotary valve that electromagnetically actuates the piston. There is no electrical problem with the valve,and the passages are clear. How is it possible this is the problem? What am I missing?
     
    #13 douglasjre, Dec 30, 2017
  14. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    I didn't clean the inkake manifold. How could misc debris in there be the cause when the egr passages were not filthy and debris in the intake manifold would effect nothing? What am I not seeing?
     
    #14 douglasjre, Dec 30, 2017
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  15. danlatu

    danlatu Senior Member

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    Have you looked inside the intake manifold right under the throttle body? You will see oil/water/fuel. Upon startup it is sucked into the combustion chamber. The contaminants come from the crankcase > pcv > intake plenum. This cause's high levels of compression knock/detonation. It fowls the plugs and causes pre-ignition. It also trips off the knock sensor to throw codes. If you do not put an oil catch can in, you will have a blown head gasket from the detonation. I had a spare intake plenum and threw some clean oil to show you were it sits. Your oil will look black and if water is present, it will appear more brownish.

    IMG_0225.JPG
    IMG_0224.JPG
     
    #15 danlatu, Dec 30, 2017
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  16. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    What did the egr pipe, valve and cooler look like? If you didn’t get the passageways from the egr pipe through the intake manifold, likely they are plugged and not allowing the recirculating gases to pass to all cylinders.

    The passages are small and located at the base of the manifold inlets.

    Worth a check.
     
    #16 Raytheeagle, Dec 30, 2017
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  17. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Is this the problem you had with yours? Did putting an oil catch can fix your problem?
     
    #17 douglasjre, Dec 30, 2017
  18. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    I’ve not had a P0401 or P0300 code thrown. I’ve also not had a cold start knock.

    I put a catch can on last weekend as I want to keep the Prius running well.

    Have the Prolong harness for the hv battery, so this is another preventative maintenance move.

    Hope it works.
     
    #18 Raytheeagle, Dec 30, 2017
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  19. danlatu

    danlatu Senior Member

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    It is a problem with all the 3rd gen prius. Yes it did solve the problem. Oil Catch Can thread .
    Raytheeagle also has a point. Make sure all the ports are cleaned on the intake manifold. I posted a pic of water flowing into the egr pipe into the throttle body. Mine was clogged @ 297k and used purple power to soak it and a pressure washer to blow it out. It was full of carbon. Please give some of us a like if we helped in any way.(y)

    IMG_0226.JPG
     
    #19 danlatu, Dec 30, 2017
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  20. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    I ordered a new EGR valve and PCV valve. Looks like I have my work cut out for me when parts get here
     
    #20 douglasjre, Jan 2, 2018
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