Why I Hate my Prius Prime

Whatever the expected number of hydrogen vehicles is, the commercial stations will need to built for higher through rates to reduce the chance of someone getting stuck waiting and wondering why didn't they just buy the BEV or non-hydrogen fueled PHEV. California has already made that mistake.

This, of course, will increase the station's cost. Which is already higher than that for liquid fuel stations and DC fast chargers.

Reformation is cheaper, which is why it will be the preferred source for hydrogen.

If any method of freeing hydrogen was easy, there would be some of it laying around for us to use. If we are going to take the electricity and water approach, we could add CO2 and get methane or even liquid hydrocarbons for not much more cost.

The grid can fill up 3 to 4 Model 3's(310 mile range) to every Mirai(312 miles) it fills.

 

Reformation is only cheaper if you don't include the cost of transport and if you maintain the assumption of unlimited cheap natural gas.

But it takes too long and makes you have to tote around a thousand pounds of battery you rarely need. That energy loss (acceleration and rolling friction losses) is about the same as the loss of using grid-electrolysis produced hydrogen for 1/3 of your total miles. So energy wise, it's a wash.

 

An on site steam reformer at the station might be able to make hydrogen for $2/gge.
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/06/f23/fcto_myrdd_production.pdf

Hydrogen from electrolysis depends upon cheap electric rates.

April: Producing industrial hydrogen from renewable energy

For much of the country, electric rates will exceed the rates in those charts.
Electricity Monthly Update

Natural gas makes up a portion electric generation, As long as that remains, increases to its price will effect electric rates.

Hydrogen tanks are no spring chickens, and a top of the line one will have 95% of its filled weight going to the dead weight of the tank itself. Since the discussion is plug in FCEVs, the cars will also have a substantial battery. The physical requirements of the tank could mean the FCEV loses more space to the tanks plus battery than a BEV.

Unless the hydrogen station is over built, the fill times for hydrogen will average out to longer than what people are use to with gasoline or diesel.

 

If you can recharge hydrogen at home, FCEV would be a fabulous way to go. What do you think of something like Joule Box, a portable power plant on YouTube?

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

I also have a 40-50mile commute daily (PiP owner) I'm always jealous when I see a prime sitting in front of me. ❤️ The aesthetic of the car is beautiful. For me, I don't feel like I could fully trust the full EV. It's like charging a phone every night (i forget time to time)

I also think the prius/prime is much more comfortable than the bolt/volt (was thinking about getting another hybrid). The 120 mile range isn't enough. especially to Vegas and back or mini vacation locations

 

You might consider a used, BMW i3-REx. The 72 mile EV range with another 78 miles of gas range makes it a nice solution. Granted you live in California and I would never suggest violating local ordinances like post speed limits. Still, living in Alabama, I've coded my BMW i3-REx:

• Default middle of three driving modes for efficiency (and also increases effective range)
• Changed usable fuel tank from 1.9 to 2.3 gallons

An end-of-lease, BMW i3-REx can be bought for $20-25k with recommendation to look at the 2015 model year because they made the high-speed, CCS charger standard.

Bob Wilson

 

You might consider a used, BMW i3-REx. The 72 mile EV range with another 78 miles of gas range makes it a nice solution. Granted you live in California and I would never suggest violating local ordinances like posted speed limits. Still, living in Alabama, I've coded my BMW i3-REx:

• Default middle of three driving modes for efficiency (and also increases effective range)
• Changed usable fuel tank from 1.9 to 2.3 gallons (for cross country)
• Enable REx to sustain charge as high as 75% SOC (for cross country)

An end-of-lease, BMW i3-REx can be bought for $20-25k with recommendation to look at the 2015 model year because it includes the fast DC charger port, CCS.

On the downside, the $140-160 tires appear to go about 15k miles. Also, I'm only getting 40 MPG on the REx at 70 mph. Faster than 70 mph draws down the battery charge and decreases MPG. Mine is a 2014 model and had an infantile problem with a motor mount bolt. For more details see my BMW i3-REx thread in "Other cars" -> "EV"

Bob Wilson

 

Is there really any proof that trying to save EV battery for driving in the city, slow speeds, etc. is a more economical way to drive? I simply drive the car and when the EV battery runs down, that's it.

 

There is as far as I'm concern, I get almost 20 more miles a gallon saving my EV for slower speeds. For my whole daily commute I get in the 70's just starting with EV and letting it run out, and 90's if I save it for the slower speeds. Yesterday I got my best ever, 106.8 for the whole day...

 

There is as far as I'm concern, I get almost 20 more miles a gallon saving my EV for slower speeds. For my whole daily commute I get in the 70's just starting with EV and letting it run out, and 90's if I save it for the slower speeds. Yesterday I got my best ever, 106.8 for the whole day...

 

Gas engines are most efficient at a higher workload. Using it when it is most efficient is optimal.

 

If you just leave to chance when the ICE will come on then sometimes it will come on just as you get to a stop light, for example. And you'll sit there, going no where, just to warm up the ICE. If you decide when to start the ICE when you know you'll be driving relatively fast without stopping then all the warm up time will also be moving the car.
This is besides any gains gotten because you might be driving slow while in EV and not putting enough demand on the ICE to have it reach an optimum speed.

Mike

 

Haven't seen that system, but others have been proposed.

First, it'll have the issues of a home CNG filling station, but worse. Filling a CNG Civic with the Phil system took around as long as charging up a BEV. The required annual service of changing seals and membranes for it was around a $1000, the system was about $5000 back in the late '90s. Hydrogen will require more robust materials, because it is more reactive than natural gas, and the pumps need to go up to at least 5000psi versus the CNGs 3500psi. That won't completely fill the 10k psi tanks hydrogen cars now use, though. This all increases the cost.

In addition, a hydrogen system needs a way to store the gas if producing it by electrolysis; its a slow process to do efficiently. If using home PV, the system needs to be over sized compared to what is required for charging a BEV. Reforming NG on site is an option, but there are home FCEV units available for providing power that can also be cogen hot water and heat. Factor in the cost of the pump for filling the car, it is cheaper and more efficient to get such a system for the home and a plug in car.

 

The mechanics of the center position were decided by personal injury and product liability lawyers several decades ago. If a (small) person can sit there, then there must be a seat belt there, making it a 5-passenger car, regardless of actual load capacity and reasonable passenger space.

 

The reason I hate my Prime is because it makes the math to justify getting a Model S fail. I drive 1000 miles per week. My fuel costs with gas at $2.50, and mpg at 76, now makes monthly fuel savings with the Model S $141. $141 per month savings does not go very far towards helping with the purchase of a $100,000 car.

 

Would cheaper gas, more Prime EV % miles, and a Model 3 make it happen sooner?

 

No. Cheaper fuel, and more Prime EV range makes the math worse.

Regarding the Model 3, waiting months for the Prime was hard enough. Waiting for the 3 will be an eternity. I have a path that I take that has Superchargers 225 miles apart. This would force me to buy the long range Model 3, since Standard only has 220 miles of range. After AWD, needed for mountain passes in the winter, autopilot, auto drive, and Unlimited Supercharger, which may not be available in the 3, I may as well get the S while I can still get the 7500 tax credit. So now I try to explain to my wife that I will save $141 per month by spending $100,000 on a car, and she just laughs.

 

Be sure to allow for a very significant discount to the claimed range when crossing mountain passes in winter conditions, just as we must allow for reduced MPG and range in gassers in those same conditions. I.e. the S might not be as good a fit as you hoped.

Yet. Until more & closer stations are available.

 

If you are driving 50,000 miles a year as you stated, think how much a $100K car will depreciate in a year or two with that mileage on it. I would guess a two year old Tesla with 100 thousand miles on it would be worth about half of what you paid for it and a two year old Prime about the same percentage. Forget the $141 per month savings when you losing $2000 a month in depreciation.