Featured Is Tesla revisiting Battery Swaps?

That is also true outside of Priuschat.

 

That seems unusually boxed in for the openmindness I've come to know you for. Please don't let your experiences/locality dictate what is best or possible for others.

 

maybe a teeny unfair - but lest we forget - it was only 3yrs ago Totota/Lexus was slingin' mud at plugins like it was nobody's business;



They obviously felt there was no room for diversity at the time. Now of course Toyota is finally getting on board - publicly stating they have a long-range plug-in in the works.


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Those were simply to meet CARB minimum requirements for zero-emission vehicles, as were the teeny scion ev micro-cars - with their pathetic 38 mile range.
Scion iQ To Be Pulled Off Sale As Tiny Car Fails To Sell In U.S.
Hard to imagine no one wanted to spend big bucks so they can go 30 miles but hey, that was good ammo for Toyota to prove no one wants electric cars. Coincidentally they were beginning to push their hydrogen fool cell.
anyway - you don't hear Toyota claiming their hydrogen project to be a flop. But you don't see anymore smear campaigns or Toyota screaming hydrogen accolades anymore either. Old notions die-hard.
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Of course they haven't completely given up yet. You spend billions & billions to try and get a system viable, you have to try to get something out of it. Perhaps if the lobby had paid higher incentive to keep systems working in Canada they would still be up and running there.

Vancouver Ends Hydrogen Bus Program Amid High Costs - Gas 2
But you can't fool people all the time. Even so, there will be a market for hydrogen in confined places, whether it's a small island country, or a huge Shipyard.
Perfect time for a segway between fool cell & battery swaps. When Toyota dishonestly tried claiming hydrogen refueling was faster than battery charging, this was the time that Tesla created their battery swap station. The hydrogen Lobby tried to grab more zero emissions fuel credits by tieing them to quick refuels. Of course once Tesla beat them at their own dishonest game, by showing how fast a battery could get swapped, the lobby gave up on that notion.
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Apparently they aren't familiar with the sunk cost fallacy in economics.

 

i read that toyota is working on its own battery swap invention.

 

Source: https://cafcp.org/sites/default/files/W2W-2016.pdf


Understand the "efficiency" bubbles are just for generation. Notice "CNG" and "E85" have no bubbles.

The colored bars show the "Btu/mi" which is a better metric of efficiency delivered to the wheel.

I've also updated their vehicle chart with 2017 data:


Bob Wilson

 

IMHO model 3 packs were designed to be less expensive, but swapable modules. Think of it this way. You can build a secure quick disconnect, but it costs more money, and if most never or only once replace, no reason to add costs to all the packs and cars. Model 3 was probably designed to be swappable, but more must be done, no hot swaps and quick releases.

 

The patent was just "granted."
It can take 2-5 years from the time a patent is filed to when it is granted.
Sometimes the patent office requests more info, etc.

Mike

 

ah, thanks. then that makes the whole discussion moot.

 

I would agree. Obviously they have to have some degree of "swapability" even if it isn't as easy or quick as the Model S.

 

Interesting to see stats for CNG. You could rent CNG cars in Denver, but you couldn't fill them up easily, unless you were near the airport, at least when I lived there.

I thought what got Toyota off the dime on BPEVs was China. There's not much of a market for the Mirai here, although we've got plenty of manure that can be used to turn into hydrogen!

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

Not only is CO2 still an issue using crap to reform hydrogen - cattle manure isn't the cheapest way to reform hydrogen either .... otherwise that's what would be done. In stead of environmental sustainability, the hydrogen lobby's "job one" is to seek profit sustainability. That means you must necessarily reduce fuel conversion costs. It's cheaper to use up non-renewabless .... coal or natural gas fuels to reform hydrogen. Bob's posted charts above don't do justice to revealing the dark side of fuel cell cars. But - it did a great job at diminishing the better side of electric cars, using a Nissan Leaf with its putsy little 80 mile range & 4hr recharge time via L2. I'm surprised they didn't refer to L1 & it's even slower 16hr recharge time. wow
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Sorry, I'll update the chart with current Tesla ranges. I honestly didn't pay that much attention to the all electric bar:
Compare Side-by-Side

Looks like the 2017 Tesla Model S AWD - 100D has 335 mile range.



At 440V, 18 Teslas could fill in a 24 hour period. So looking at the block-to-block speed:

• 335 mi / 70 mph ~= 4.8 hours (rounded up)
• 4.8 + 1.4 ~= 6.2 hours (trip and charge)
• 335 mi / 6.2 hrs ~= 54 mph

Bob Wilson

 

In the last week I've read several articles about Tesla removing the lower range S models from production, adjusting S and X pricing with significant discounts, having production problems achieving volume on the Model 3 (amazing every VIN/production number is being tracked by the online forums), and worries about 3rd quarter financials due to the low production numbers....

The sweet spots to any alternative fuel adoption in my thinking are:

• 15 minutes refuel (~3x ICE)
  
• fuel available everywhere (defined as all quadrants of a city 12 at a time and every 50 miles of rural and interstate roads)
• Refuel costs less than or equal to fossil
• Initial buy or lease costs no more than 10% more than ICE (you can get a 40MPG compact for $17k or an EV at what % more?)
  
• Tax incentivized

or government mandated.

Having battery swap stations available on some corridors is nice. But. if I want to stop every 200 miles and I'm used to being able to do so trivially, you have a huge financially/politically involved infrastructure you have to duplicate/overcome.

 

Understand I have great admiration for what Tesla has done but I'm remembering the empty SuperCharger station in Athens AL:

Completely incompatible with my BMW i3-REx, CCS charger, I might as well be looking at an empty lot for all the good it does.The same is true with battery pack swaps unless someone wants to post that the four known Tesla models can swap battery packs.

In contrast, gasoline and diesel pump nozzles follow a standard. So yesterday, I filled 2.3 gallons for our BMW i3-REx. I could have filled up at any hour of the day but chose to refuel the next morning at Costco while running other errands.

I fully appreciate Tesla's SuperCharger network as it makes their cars practical but it remains proprietary. Yet Teslas can use a CHAdeMO adapter, taking a Leaf station. Worse, the CCS charger as in a public network, is growing slowly in large part because of the upfront, capital costs. Worse, no manufacturers are supporting it and our local dealers lock up their L2 chargers outside of business hours.

I am sympathetic to the problems @ChargePoint Team faces and do carry their card along with a Blink card. But I am convinced that the first step is to make chargers available 24x7 with a reasonable, commercially available charge rate. I have no problem with 2x local electrical rates that would achieve parity with current gas prices. I could even see 3x local electrical rates so the public stations are seen as an extension of EV range and let future 'charge wars' bring the prices down.

Personally, I would like to see bi-directional, utility grade, batteries that could buffer the local grid. At night, taking a charge of cheap power and then providing it as needed for local demands and high-speed, DC charging. What I want to see takes significant capital but provides support in depth for not only the grid but also EV transportation.

Bob Wilson