Featured CA Support for EVs

I think that we need to be careful when separating the "traditional" gas powered Hybrid from plug-in Hybrids. Significantly, the electricity from the grid is as polluting or more polluting than the same amount of electric power produced by ICEs. Cost (the typical consumers' main concern) is typically higher for plug power, as well.

I would like to see a plug-in device to scan the internet for gasoline cost and calculate it offset vs. plug power and only charge the car when the cost is instantly lower. The PHEV would then effectively be a flex-fuel economy car. The cost for such a device would be minimal.

 

just do something, that's my new motto. i wish all states had more incentives for ev's. double down, triple down, trickle down, whatever it takes. and start putting fees and taxes on gas hogs, and continually raise gas taxes, while simultaneously subsidizing electric costs through smart chargers.

 

The areas in which a plug in on the grid is dirtier than a Prius are areas in which plug ins aren't big sellers. Even then, the plug in is as dirty as a car getting 40mpg or more.

 

My next Prius will be a Prime (or other PHEV) if there are tax incentives that lower MY overall purchase cost. Not because it is a better choice overall, but because it will be more advantageous to me. Taxing mileage (gas guzzlers) is very regressive and hurts the lower income citizens, so that does not seem fair, since these are the cars they can afford.

 

low income citizens are not required to drive guzzlers, there are affordable econocars.

 

Not if gas prices go up.

 

that's why you don't buy a guzzler in the first place. anyone with a guzzler, regardless of income level, has had the ample opportunity over the last several years, to sell at a profit, and buy an eco car which no one wants now.

 

This is an often repeated diversionary statement. There are several aspects to this.

First, we have both CO2 emissions and other (smog) emissions.
In terms of CO2 it depends on the mix of source for the local grid but as another poster said it compares to rough;y 40 mpg. Most ICE cars are far below this since the average is about 25 mpg.

Next we have all the other pollutants. Even if the amount was the same in an EV powered from the grid it would be a win to move all this away from the dense city centers. But it is really better than this...most EVs have an MPGe rating of around 100 or more. About 4x better than the typical 25 mpg car.

The next thing is that when you buy an EV today you are not powering it from just today's electricity grid. You are powering it with the grid, as it improves over then next 10 or 15 years or more. The average car is 11 years old today. When you buy an ICE car today it will never get any cleaner...gasoline will stay the same and the car will pollute the same (or maybe worse) over the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Finally, look at the big picture long term. ICE cars, on average get about 25 mpg. If everyone drove a Prius we'd be at about double that -- 50 mpg. This isn't going to happen since there are many people who need (or want) bigger cars for various reasons. Toyota has done a great job with the Prius, but the mpg hasn't really increased by that much over the 20 years since it first came out. Maybe 10 or 15% in total. We aren't going to get reasonable cars that get 75 or 100 mpg on gas. But even if we do we still have significant quantities of CO2 and other smog forming emissions. EVs get about 100 MPGe, but you can ignore that number. Instead think about how you get any car to or near zero CO2 with gas...the only way is infinitely high mpg...i.e. 100 mpg, 1000 mpg, etc. Never going to happen. Not even going to get close even given a few decades of what Toyota has done in the last 20 years.

How do you get to zero CO2 with an EV? You can do it with a number of sources...solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, geothermal and possibly other methods.
So, with gas we are about stuck at today's CO2 emission rate with some minor future improvements and possible changes based on getting some drivers to switch car sizes.
With EVs there are numerous ways to improve the grid a get to zero CO2. You can even do it yourself at home with solar.
(And yes, technically none of these are actually at zero since there is some relatively small amount of CO2 used to construct solar, wind, etc.)

Mike

 

I was referring to the map from here.
Life Cycle Electric Vehicle Emissions (2015) | Union of Concerned Scientists
The report came out in 2015, so the grid data is likely older.

In terms of CO2 emissions, a plug in emits as much as an equivalent ICE car.

For other emissions, it is going to depend on the electric plant. Natural gas in a converted ICE is cleaner than gasoline. The emissions get better in a more efficient power plant. The emissions will be higher from coal, specially old, grandfathered plants.

No matter the plant fuel, it is easier to manage emissions at a central, stationary source than on numerous mobile ones. We can replace and upgrade the emission controls on a power plant, if we don't simply shut it down and replace with cleaner sources. That is not practical on a car, and cars emit more over time. The EPA emission bins allow more pollutants out of an older car. The petroleum source can also become dirtier over time. It takes more energy for tar sands and even fracking than just pumping light,sweat crude from the ground.

Some might want to play with this: EV Emissions Tool | Union of Concerned Scientists

 

Well we need to follow closely what is happening in CA.
The problem is the HOV lanes are stuffed with Plug-Ins, and that free HOV incentive is a very strong sales incentive.
So the reason for increasing $$$ rebate is probably to maintain sales if the HOV incentive is scaled back.

I think we should hear soon (by Sept) what the CA legislature is doing on free HOV.

 

make all the lanes hov, and allow plug ins only, with one special lane for bev's.

 

If I'm reading the graph right...since the average (across all states) is ~25 mpg for gas cars, there is no place where the average car is better than the average EV.
Good, better, best needs to be updated.

Mike

 

As I have stated before, the Union of Concerned Scientists is special interest group which is not a union and is not composed of concerned scientists. It is a fund raising group. Therefore, care should be taken when using their research or tools.

 

well heck, you can just say that about anybody, and donald trump it all away, anytime you disagree.

 

Here's my suggestion. Join the Union of Concerned Scientists. It's free. Allow them to contact you via email. After 3 months, see what you think. My conclusion? They are a fund raising group, not composed of scientists at all. YMMV. But I doubt it.

 

could be, but the facts remain. renewable energy is the only known way to combat climate change. and we haven't figured out how to power cars cleanly any other way.

 

I think I jumped in with the thought that the Hybrid may be the most efficient way to power cars and should not be excluded when talking about BEVs. It certainly seems probable to me that Hybrids (like the Prius) may be more efficient than BEVs when all factors are considered. Personally, I have a sneaking sense that four day work weeks and telework might be the best way to reduce green house gas emissions from fossil fuels. That would be a potential 20% or more reduction in tailpipe emissions without any change in technology, infrastructure power generation.