Featured Daimler Battery Plans

They better do something. I see the EPA is now investigating them on Dieselgate type charges.

U.S. sues Fiat Chrysler over diesel vehicles

EDIT: Oops. I forgot Chrysler got sold again.

 

By definition, a car with start/stop and regenerative braking is a hybrid. So those BAS Chevys did achieve hybrid-like performance.

On a serious note, BAS was a failure because of high cost or pricing. There was some fuel savings, but no where near enough for the investment. It was also a 36 volt system; it could have done better as a 48 volt one. The eAssist in the Malibu had a 115 volt battery. GM is test selling an eAssist Silverado/Sierra in California. The 1 to 2 MPG improvement doesn't look like much, but it'll save more gas over a year in the truck than improving a 50mpg car by the same amount. The more important number is that they are charging just $500 for the option. Not that long ago $500 only got you the start/stop side of a hybrid.

A 48 volt mild hybrid won't get you to Prius numbers, but with a low enough cost, you might be able to swarm the roads with more of them.

I don't think a car company not building a battery factory themselves is a sign of them not being committed to plug ins. Many parts are out sourced, and letting a battery company with a lot more experience supply your traction battery is likely a smarter move than a car company making their own battery cells. Tesla will see a cost reduction with the Gigafactory, but the cells made on site are made by Panasonic.

LG Chem's US factory might have been the first in the world to actually produce a GWh worth of batteries in a year. Their investment there for the Bolt isn't helping Ioniq and Niro production in Korea.

An actual sign of GM not being committed is that LG supplies the entire drive train for the Bolt. LG might only supply batteries to Hyundai. LG is a big battery and electric motor and component company though, and the partnership is a reason for the Bolt's low cost. GM could shift some of that in house as the EV market grows. Their hybrid drive train isn't solely supplied. Or LG might end up owning GM and becoming Hyundai/Kia's competitor.

 

Finally they made it public... We worked on this in 2010 for BMW. There are a lot of things they're planning on doing with the 48v system. End game is to replace the legacy 12v system. 48v is closer to telecom and networking, 12v is legacy from oldschool battery days.

Start/Stop is real damaging to a 12v battery and starter, not as much when you have 4x the voltage to spin things with... It also allows mild hybrid things like Honda's IMA style system, except if designed from the beginning, you can do some good designs with it.

 

There are two main focuses with hybridisation:
- fuel economy
- drivability

Toyota made strong full hybrid from a cheap "undrivable" engine and made it pleasant to drive
48V system typically rely on more expensive already good to drive engine (diesel or turbo DI petrol)

In the end both variants cost roughly the same, but the true diference will come with plug-ins, where Toyota will have obvious cost advantage against "expensive engine" rivals. I just don't know why Toyota is so slow with introducing plug-in models.

 

What percent of new car sales are currently hybrids? What was the peak percent?

The cost of a full hybrid has come down, but many in the US still opt to pay much less for the ICE model. The 48 volt, or any mild, hybrid will reach Prius levels of fuel economy, but Prius levels don't do society or the environment any good if people aren't buying them. The mild hybrid's potential isn't in saving a lot of fuel in a single car, but in saving more over an entire model sold by being cheap enough to become standard equipment.

Let's look at the Camry; over 388.6k were sold in the US during 2016. If all those cars had the base engine, and driven 15k miles a year, they will use 215.89 million gallons of gasoline. 22.2k hybrid Camries were sold last year. In the 2016 Camry model fleet, they save 4 million gallons of gas by replacing a base engine car. If the next gen hybrid manages 50mpg combined, that figure will go up to 5.67 million gallons saved.

A mild hybrid that improves the Camry's 27mpg combined by one MPG will save 7.71 million gallons if every Camry had it. A 2mpg increase will save 14.89 million gallons. The Mazda6 with regen braking and adjustable grill shutters sees a 2mpg improvement on the EPA window sticker. Such an improvement isn't out of line for other cars when start/stop also becomes an additional fuel saving tactic.

Start/stop is starting to become a standard feature in many car models. With costs only being a few hundred more, a mild hybrid option becoming standard is not unreasonable.

Do you have any numbers on how much cheaper the ICE in the gen4 Prius is than the one in the Corolla?

The more technologically advanced, expensive engines are getting used in both hybrids and ICE. Cheap engines are only going into cheap cars. Back to the Camry, the two M/Gs, attending power electronics, and battery is still trumping the more complex transmission in cost.

The upcoming F150 hybrid will be a parallel hybrid along the lines of Hyundai's and Honda's double clutch hybrid systems. They can have a cost advantage over the power-split systems. I see Toyota holding onto HSD, but I suspect other companies will pick a parallel system for non-plug in, full hybrids.

 

The information may be out there. The bigger question is when will the US get the Corolla Hybrid that is available in other countries?

I think the real issue for us here is that Toyota USA does not consider the Prius, etc. as a real Car, but ad something else called a Hybrid. That is the only explanation that makes sense for the menu on their main site not including Hybrid offerings in the list of Cars.

 

Does Corolla come with turbo charged direct injected engine, that will have to have DPF and similar expensive exhaust aftertreatment just like diesels?

Corolla has a cheap engine.

 

why would it? the Corolla Hybrid available in Australia is "petrol-electric", not diesel.
It's fuel consumption is about a third less than the non-hybrid version.
See 2016 Toyota Corolla Hybrid review | first drive | CarsGuide

 

And some would call the Corolla a cheap car.

The 2.5L 4 cylinder in the new generation Camry doesn't have a turbo, but it is direct injection. This isn't Toyota's first DI engine; some also have a turbo. Few specific details are out for the ICE in the hybrid model. It will be a sibling to the new DI base engine; so we can't rule out it also being DI at this point. The Corolla remodel comes a year or two after the Camry. The engine in the NA Eco trim is a newer engine, and Toyota will most likely just make it the base engine with the redesign here.A DI engine could appear for the Eco trim or as a performance upgrade.

There are more technologies than DI available that improve efficiency, performance, and also increase the cost. Variable valve timing has not stood still, and the newer, wider range versions are higher cost than the mature versions. Cooled EGR and the engine heat recovery system are used by the Prius ICE, and add to its cost.

A port injected engine with basic variable valve timing on the intake is what I call a cheap engine. Its cheap because the R&D has been paid off a while ago. Start using DI and the latest engine technology, and the engine cost climbs. It doesn't have DI, but the Prius engine is not cheap. Most of the improvements to fuel economy come from improving the efficiency of the ICE. Getting a peak 40% thermal efficiency would not have been possible sticking to a cheap engine with old technology.

So a DI engine does have an increased cost, but it, transmission, and exhaust treatment are still cheaper than a modern port injected engine, transaxle, two largish M/Gs plus inverters, and battery. Adding a simple mild hybrid won't increase that cost over that of the full power-split hybrid. Then the full hybrid will eventually have to adopt the DI and other tech to continue improving its fuel economy.

Direct injection has become common on gasoline cars. It gives the efficiency and performance benefit of a higher compression with the increased fuel cost of higher octane fuel. It does result in higher particle emission, though the particles are chemically different from what a diesel emits. EU emission regulations measure the particle levels from all cars. DI levels are high enough to require an exhaust filter. That isn't enforced yet, and there are ways of reducing a DI gas cars particles to not require a filter when the rule is enforced.

Toyota had a hybrid port and direct injection system they developed to control carbon build up in the early generation DI engines that were once available in a Lexus. It also reduces the particle emissions of a straight DI engine. Car(engine) manufacturers will likely adopt something similar instead of installing an exhaust filter.

The US just ignores particles from gasoline vehicles at this time. Even though there are a few examples of port injection exceeding the particle limits that require a filter on a diesel.

The Corolla lineage is a little murky at this point. Toyota replaced the Corolla hatchback with the Auris, which is derived from the Corolla platform. It is slightly shorter than the Corolla sedan in wheel base on length. The Scion/Corolla iM here is an Auris.

I mention this because most of world gets an Auris hybrid. It's a big seller in Europe where import taxes makes the Prius expensive. Australia kept the Corolla name on the hatchback when the Auris arrived. I think only China gets a Corolla sedan hybrid, though India gets one next year. Camry hybrids are a big portion of Camry sales there.

I wouldn't expect a Corolla sedan hybrid in the US until the next redesign. 2018 will be the fifth year for the current Corolla generation; so 2019 at the earliest. Even then, our low fuel prices could keep it out of the market. With hatchbacks being less popular here, and its closeness in size to the Prius, I don't see us getting an Auris hybrid. Perhaps the C-HR hybrid will arrive with crossovers being more popular, and the Kia Niro doing well.

 

Thus GM selling the eAssist Silverado/Sierra in just California to test the waters. User expectations of payback are linked to what they paid for the investment. Payback became a big talking point for hybrids because they cost thousands more than a comparable ICE model when they arrived. Even with improvements in their cost, the hybrid premium is still measured in thousands. A basic mild hybrid system should carry a price tag measured in hundreds.

I admit they will still be a tough sell in the US, but there is also the pressure of CAFE in getting them on the road. I'm sure that is at least part of the reason that start/stop systems are becoming standard, and if the promised cost of these 48volt systems comes to pass, they will become standard too. Then they are 'free' to the customer.

A full hybrid is the better choice for someone wanting to reduce gas use, but we've seen the sales trends. New hybrid models increases choice and helps, but an over whelming majority pick the ICE model here. We are going to have to slip a hybrid system into their car when they aren't looking, and no manufacturer is going to offer a full hybrid only in a major car segment.

 

If something becomes the only choice that makes it forced not free.

 

Looks like I wasn't understood correctly.

Obviously, on paper all combinations of engines and hybrids exists. I just wanted to point out that Toyota way is simple cheap engine with expensive hybrid system. All 48V systems that I have seen incorporate complex engines and transmissions with cheap hybrid systems.

Back to question, Prius nad Corolla engine are not good example, because they are too similar (apart from valvematic and some other things). Maybe we could compare NX300h and NX200t AWD engines? What is hybrid premium?

In Europe we have 1.2t (Turbo DI) in Auris (Corolla in AU), that model mated to multidrive S costs €19,800, hybrid costs €22,150, but there is special offer on hybrid only for €17,950. Only crazy person would chose 1.2t with Multirdrive S and only crazy company would make such an offer if there would not be enough profit margin in selling a hybrid for that price at that volume (100k/anually).

The only 48V system available in Europe (only selected countries) is Continental system implemented into Renalut Scenic 1.5 dci, 48V premium is exactly £1,000.
- Auris/Corolla Estate Business 1.8 Hybrid £23,935
- Prius Business £24,700
- Renault Scenic 1.5 dci Dynamic NAV £25,565
- Renault Scenic 1.5 dci Dynamic NAV Hybrid £26,555
- Prius+ £27,660
Prices are from Bristol Street Motors | Cheap Cars for Sale | Used and New Cars

My observation:
Toyota hybrids are no more than 2k more expensive than modern turbo DI petrol offerings
Toyota hybrids are no more than 1k more expensive than modern diesel offerings
Toyota hybrids are on pair with 48V diesel offering (P0 system, without e-turbo)
Toyota hybrids will be on pair with 48V petrol offerings with e-turbo

It's impossible to compare model with model, but my feeling is what I wrote above.

 

Going to rip your airbags and seat belts out then. Aside, a gen2 did do that for the front seats; replacing them with 5 point racing harnesses.

The car industry was considering replacing the 12 volt system with 42 volt because of the increase in electrical accessories in cars back in the '90s. That accessory load has only grown since then, and an upgraded electrical system might start to become the norm. Might as well take advantage of it, and also throw in a mild hybrid system.

You will be free to replace the more powerful HSG with a traditional starter and alternator in that event.

It just started for the 2017 model year, and there are Fueleconomy.gov listings for the trucks. With only expecting to make 700 units between the two brands, it is possible GM hasn't started shipping them yet. Hybridcars' Dashboard isn't helping. A couple hybrid Silverados are listed as selling earlier in the year, but the months in which it happened also have lines for hybrid Tahoe/Yukon/ Escalade. So those pick ups might have been two modes that were forgotten on a dealer lot.

GM hasn't come out and called the truck eAssist a 12 volt system, but the motor output and battery size are close to the Continental system mentioned below. I did stumble upon a first responder guide for the eAssist Silverado. No technical specifications, but the system has two ultracapacitors in addition to the Li-ion battery, and over what the Continental system has, diagrammed there. That could equate to better recapture of energy during braking. Mazda's iEloop regen brake system uses just an ultracapacitor alone, and it manages to increase the EPA city of the Mazda6 by 2mpg.

The link directly opens a download dialogue for the PDF, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwiFqOK9-Y3UAhUlJcAKHXP1B74QFgg2MAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gmstc.com%2FWebTreeDocuments%2Fdownload.asp%3FlID%3D9%26nID%3D793&usg=AFQjCNFyDWafAAyiJRm7HmpgAqebHtiAMw&cad=rja

I understood you. I just disagree that Toyota's hybrids use cheap engines. A cheap engine will not achieve a 38% or higher thermal efficiency. It will be closer to 20%. Without a plug, all a hybrid's energy is coming from gasoline. It needs a high efficiency engine, and the technology for that efficiency increases the complexity and cost. Atkinsonization alone adds to this over a basic, cheap Otto engine.

No argument that a traditional transmission is mechanically more complex than the HSD's transaxle. Without the added complexity and cost of two M/Gs, inverters, and traction battery, the transaxle will not transfer engine power to the car's wheels though..

I swear some car sites are designed to make learning details about the model as difficult as possible. Best that I can tell from the Lexus, the two have the same basic equipment. The 300h is priced $3,235 more than the 200t AWD. Feature packages are a flat $220 less for the hybrid, so the price difference might drop by $440 between fully loaded cars.

Keep in mind that the margin the company sees could include the influence of meeting regulation requirements and avoiding fines. The accounting can get complicated; Tundra and Tacoma sales in the US could be paying for the sale price of the Auris hybrid.

On an individual basis, a DI turbo engine could cost more than a port injected Atkinson one, but larger production numbers can negate that.

Just to mention, turbocharged engines aren't as common in the US. The best, all around DI engines are probably Mazda's SkyActivs, and they don't use turbos.

By a quick look at exterior dimensions, the Renault is closer in size to the Prius Plus.
Don't need to know to say that the price is too high, but what fuel economy improvement does the Scenic hybrid get?

My observation:
Toyota hybrids are no more than 2k more expensive than modern turbo DI petrol offerings
Toyota hybrids are no more than 1k more expensive than modern diesel offerings
Toyota hybrids are on pair with 48V diesel offering (P0 system, without e-turbo)
Toyota hybrids will be on pair with 48V petrol offerings with e-turbo

It's impossible to compare model with model, but my feeling is what I wrote above.[/QUOTE]The first Prius went on sale in 1997. Toyota has a big head start in terms of refining system and improving cost. Being new, these 48volt hybrids could be initially priced higher than their benefit.

GMs BAS system came out in 2007. It was a 36volt mild hybrid that cost $2000 or so more than the ICE model. The Camry hybrid of the time was $3000 or so more. The eAssist was the second second generation BAS. It had a performance boost to around that of the gen2 Civic hybrid. It was standard in the models that got it. The Lacrosse saw a $3000, but the addition of more features in the redesign hinders quickly grabbing a hybrid premium figure.

The eAssist in the new trucks is down powered from the previous generation; in line with these 48volt systems coming to market. GM is only charging $500 for it. In addition to low cost, these systems are basically bolt on. In the US, full hybrids face a sales hurdle with low fuel prices. Being simple and cheap, means these mild hybrid systems can become standard equipment here in order for manufacturers to meet CAFE targets.

 

Lets take two examples from Toyota:
1.2t is suposed to be at 36% efficient
1.5 VVTi-E in non-hybrid Yaris 38.5%

What gives? Why does a more advanced more expensive engine achieve lower efficiency? There is no direct model comparison but we can compare it to 1.4 D-4D engine available both in Auris and Yaris. 1.2t is priced only €1.3k less than 1.4 D-4D, 1.5 VVTi-E is priced €2.7k less than 1.4 D-4D. New 1.5 is a cheap engine for a cheap car, there is no mass production quantaties that will bring price of 1.2t to 1.5 levels, there is just no way.

Still not agree that DI turbo engine is at least €1k more expensive than Atkinson cooled EGR engine? Turbo engines are here because of people demand, they make it a pleasant drive, they are not here to save fuel or have lower emissions.

 

Well, they're being adopted en masse by European automakers due to an ability to APPEAR more efficient on the tests, while being cheaper than even cheating diesels, and giving diesel-like driveability.