Two dead key fobs walk into a bar at the same time? 2013 Prius v Five wagon

Discussion in 'Prius v Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by speedowa, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. speedowa

    speedowa New Member

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    This forum has been a great resource, so thanks ahead of time & hopefully someone can help guide me to the correct solution.

    2013 Prius v Wagon - 135k miles. Purchased used in 2015 at 24k miles & came with 2 key fobs that both worked. No problems & routine maintenance, oil changes, filter replacement, fluids replaced as rec'd on here.

    Problem: Key fob will not lock/ unlock the car. This started after a long drive & the car was parked from Friday evening to Sunday morning. When I went to unlock the doors with the key fob... nothing. No lights or anything left on as far as I can remember.

    More details:
    1) I have to manually unlock doors with the key & start car by placing key fob against Power button and then the car starts.
    2) Smart Key System warning light (yellow warning light of a key with an exclamation point in the middle) is illuminated after starting. I drove 5 hours on Sunday on the highway, and after ~2.5 hrs, the SKS warning light went away. After filling up on gas (kept car on), the SKS warning light lit again.

    Troubleshoot:
    1) Tried to replace key fob with new battery & tried to spare key, but both do not unlock or start the car.
    2) Tested voltage across 12v battery & got 12.85V, but this was maybe 30-45 min after parking and turning off car.
    3) Took car to Toyota dealer, they checked the smart key receiver, the fuses, and the 12v battery and all checked out ok. Their diagnosis was that 2 key fobs stopped working and I needed to order new ones ($219/ea) and have them program ($124 for both).

    Question: Any other ideas? Should I go ahead and replace the 12v battery to see if this will resolve the issues since it's been 3 years and some on here will replace on that time frame (some will wait much much longer), or just bite the $350/ $500 bullet and see if that will fix it. They dealer says that this has happened one time before on a 4runner...

    Thanks all!!
     
    #1 speedowa, Jan 17, 2017
  2. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Now why would one suspect two simultaneous failures in a system rather than a failure at a common point? How did they test the receiver?

    12.8 is right at the point it should be after sitting 24 hours unconnected after a charge. So connected and about an hour, it should be enough to drive a little ol' receiver.

    So maybe swap in a battery temporarily and see if the problem follows the battery. If no, order one key fob and let them program it. If yes, then order another. At least by doing this you limit the $ risk.
     
    #2 mikefocke, Jan 17, 2017
  3. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    There's NO WAY I would let a dealer charge me 120 bucks to program a key fob after overpaying for it at the parts counter.
    AND I'm not buying the diagnosis (I hope it was free!)
    I'd verify that the new fob batteries are correctly installed and tested, and as excellently recommended above I would also rule out the aux battery.

    Fire your dealer and get a second opinion from another one.
    Also, you can see if you have a locksmith in your town that can program fobs....and see if they can test yours.

    Let us know....
     
    #3 ETC(SS), Jan 17, 2017
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    is there a way to turn sks on and off in the screen?
     
    #4 bisco, Jan 17, 2017
  5. speedowa

    speedowa New Member

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    Thanks all for the suggestions.

    I never had a good feeling about the dealer/ service dept I took it to, but it was the closest one to work (and they charged me $125 just to take a look at it). I have doubts that they really tried to do anything other than swap out the key fob battery, hook it up to the computer and run a few diagnostics tests, and check the 12v battery.

    I checked with a Toyota mechanic on JustAnswer, and here was his answer when I told him that the dealer's suggested solution was to buy new key fobs and that they could not be reprogrammed. "Part of that statement is not true. Smart key remotes can be reprogrammed to the original engine ECU and transponder ECU but they cannot be reprogrammed to another car once they have been programmed initially. I have personally reprogrammed many smart keys to the original car that the key came with. In one case somehow the codes got erased and the keys wouldn't work. Have no idea why but when I reprogrammed the program went through and they started to work normally. Let me know what you finally have done to resolve this."

    I totally agree that two simultaneous failures of the key fobs is unlikely and with the erratic behavior of the SKS warning light coming on and off randomly with the key in the same location (my pocket).

    Next steps:
    1) Turn off/ on the SKS system and see if toggling that will work (thanks, bisco).
    2) Buy a battery and swap it out (not much more than it would take to get a 2nd opinion & i'd have spare battery when the time comes if it's doesn't solve the issue (thanks, mikefocke).
    3) Get a second opinion at my regular dealer, and make sure they try to reset the ECU, and then try to reprogram the key fobs (thanks, ETC(SS)).
    4) Buy a new key fob... (no thanks, Toyota dealer)!
     
    #5 speedowa, Jan 18, 2017
  6. speedowa

    speedowa New Member

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    Well, after driving around like this for 6 weeks, here's a quick update...

    1) Turning off SKS system didn't really do much -> the problem remains.
    2) Swapped out the 12v battery for an Optoma yellow top -> the problem remains
    3) Took it to another dealership, who actually took a more comprehensive look, they tried to reset/ reseed the ECU and then reprogram my original key fob. Doing this led them to discover that the problem in the certification ECU. To replace would involve buying another ECU ($858) with four hours of labor ($125 x 4 = $500), so I'm looking at close to $1400 bill, which is in line with other quotes from the forum to replace the ECU.
    4) New key fobs won't work, and I'm glad I didn't give the original dealer that looked at it any more money.

    So now I'm unsure what to do. The car drives great still at 140k miles, but $1400 is logically better spent on saving for the next car. It is a major pain to go from SKS smart key fobs to having to pull out the key to unlock it every single time. The dealer rep suggested that an after market alarm would take care of that, but then I'm carrying around another key fob and I still have to place the Toyota key fob near the start button to go...

    Any other ideas? I've read that some will try to flash it with 50% success, or just going with an salvaged ECU and then replacing it myself and getting the keys reprogrammed, but I'm unsure if I'm up to the task of disassembling that much...

    Thanks for reading!
     
    #6 speedowa, Mar 7, 2017
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  7. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Oy vey! This is cargo cult at it's finest. Are you old enough to remember when a new car key involved handing over $5 at a key maker shop?
     
    #7 Mendel Leisk, Mar 7, 2017
  8. cdnbrit

    cdnbrit Junior Member

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    Seems like i might be having the same issue as yourself. I haven't take my car to the local dealer yet regarding the issue. But i can relate to your first initial Post. I have some of the same initial symptoms.
     
    #8 cdnbrit, Dec 31, 2017
  9. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    Yes.
    (Some text removed after reading back in the thread. Have you REALLY been dealing with this for almost a YEAR now ? If so, maybe you don't need to get it fixed !! )

    Find a locksmith who does this kind of work. They may be able to verify the dealers analysis......or offer alternative solutions.

    And if it does appear that the controller is bad, ALL the connections to it should be unplugged, inspected and re-attached before replacing it. Sometimes that will "fix" a questionable connection issue.
     
    #9 Sam Spade, Dec 31, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If I wasn't imagining things as I read the OP, the car still starts using the proximity sensing, when the fob is held right up against the power button (numbered point 1 in the OP). I don't see where the OP explicitly says both fobs have been tried that way and both work in proximity, and that would be worth confirming if it hasn't been tried. If there are two fobs that both work in proximity for starting the car, then I don't think the OP is in any great danger of losing the use of the car. It is only the SKS, fob-stays-in-pocket function that seems to be impaired.

    Did the dealership show you the Techstream screens of information they pulled up from your smart key system while trying to diagnose it? Or do you have Techstream so you can pull up the same information yourself and post it here?

    It's one of those systems that both has a fair bit of complexity and also seldom fails, so nobody (including the dealer) has much experience troubleshooting it. There will be troubleshooting steps in the Repair Manual, and also quite likely some other publications about it, either in the Quick Technical Guides or the Library section on techinfo. My guess is that the dealer tech hasn't spent, and probably isn't going to spend, the time and effort to study this system and figure out how to follow and interpret the diagnostic steps in the manual. It would, of course, take similar time and effort on your part if you wanted to figure it out and DIY, but you might save good money that way. At least you have more incentive to put in that study and effort. The dealer's alternative to investing precious time and study is just to simply invest your money.

    If you do try replacing fobs, you can use either new ones (that have never been registered to a car), or used ones that have been "virginized" (check on eBay). Virginized ones sell for a bit more than plain used ones, but then the plain used ones won't work, so that's an easy choice. Also, some of the sellers offering virginized fobs will also virginize one you send them (for around $15 or $20 IIRC), in case you weren't paying attention and got stuck with a used one.

    -Chap
     
    #10 ChapmanF, Dec 31, 2017
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