Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

What an excellent suggestion and one I completely endorse!

Bob Wilson

 

just trying to share information as I don't come from a prius so don't have enough specific knowledge in that area to answer some of the questions and don't want to give incorrect information

so it is better to get it direct from someone with the relevant knowledge, even if that does mean visiting the dark side

 

.

 

I'm fine with that but you might have noticed this thread started in Dec 2015 and there have been a few 'official' press releases from Hyundai that call out the Toyota Prius by name. Other vendors too without selling a single Ioniq in the USA. Regardless, this is what I posted over there:

I'm Bob Wilson, a soon to be retired engineer who in 2016 sold two Prius and bought two Plug-In hybrids. We've had so many friendly Ioniq advocates over at PriusChat, it occurred to me you' all might enjoy someone with the facts and data about his particular, plug-in hybrids. So we've owned four hybrids and briefly, here is their history.

In 2005, we lost our Camry in a rain-slick, accident so I replaced it with a used, 49k mi, 2003 Prius that I drove 800 miles home to Huntsville. That led to a lot of 'lessons learned'.

In 2009, I fell into a sweet deal on a new, 2010 Prius but almost didn't take the deal. To get collision avoidance and dynamic cruise control would have required adding $6k model upgrade and then $2k on top of that. But with the 1.8L engine, it served us well as our heavy load and cross-country car. All of my cars have trailer receiver hitches.

In early May 2016, I test drove a 2016 Prius that had TSS-P, the collision avoidance and dynamic cruise control but it was a Level 3 with a heavy, useless, moon-roof and only got 99.1 MPG on a local test loop. But the initial offer $33k dropped to $28.5k as I headed to the door . . . "Thanks, I'll think about it."

I had been looking at an end of lease, 2014 BMW i3-REx, with 6,440 miles for $29.9k so I bought it. I'd "sold" the 03 Prius to our housekeeper who needed reliable transportation (and affordable since it was still giving me 52 MPG.) I drove the BMW i3-REx home over a 2,800 ft pass, 463 mi home, and never looked back. But I noticed maintenance was a little expensive.

Two tires were replaced under warranty that goes to January 2019 and I bought the other two, $340. It took 5 days in the shop plus a weekend to get all the recalls and parts in. A month later, I cracked the windshield and it was $1.8k to replace with 4 days in the shop. A failing backup camera was replaced under warranty with the part ordered and four days later, the repair done. Then Dec 9, the driver-side, motor mount bolt, ~1/2", broke in rush hour traffic and the warranty repair took 14 days with a battery cooling hose coming from Germany. The replacement parts included ~3/4" bolt whose strength increases by a power function. I had to use the 2010 Prius for those two weeks and realized, I don't want to drive without dynamic cruise control and collision avoidance.

The Decatur Toyota dealer had just gotten a Prius Prime Premium (middle grade) and I test drove it. But when I called back,"I'm sorry Mr. Wilson, we sold that ($29.5k) car yesterday <pause> but I can get another one for $36k."

Two days later, I put a $500 deposit on a 2017 Prius Prime Plus (lowest grade) for $28.5k in Rhode Island. I flew out and drove it home, 1,200 miles using dynamic cruise control to follow trucks going 67-75+ mph getting 55.7 MPG with only one fuel stop at 600 miles. As a test, I ran the second tank dry and both highway and city driving got 699 miles at 60 MPG.

Then I drove 301 miles over 7 days in electric-only mode using free chargers at restaurants and shopping centers as well as home charging over night. I only paid for 1/3d of those electric miles, about $25. Yesterday, I sent the engine oil filter element, engine oil sample, and transmission oil sample to my testing service after 2,000 service miles and two manuals for our 2010 Prius to the new owner.

I sold the 2010 Prius with 73k miles, receiver hitch, Garmin nuvi GPS, lug nut bolt on scissors jack, full-size spare tire, 1kW inverter wiring, and nearly new tires for my asking price, $8k. FYI, no accidents but the usual cosmetic, surface stuff.

So let me recap my requirements:

1. Mandatory - collision avoidance and dynamic cruise control.
2. Optional
   1. EV >= 20 miles (current work commute is 8-9 miles)
   2. MPG >= 40 MPG (we drove 700 miles to and from Oklahoma for vacation)
   3. Seats >= 4 (my wife and her two dogs)
   4. Receiver hitch
   5. Self-maintenance technical data available to owner

As of today, none of the Ioniq models are available for sale in the USA (expected any time.) The USA EPA lists three models but two appear to have only hybrid capability, no plug-in hybrid metrics. Rumors suggest it won't be until near the end of 2017 that the plug-in version will be in the USA. Of course these same rumor mongers claimed Ioniq would for sale in the USA in 2016.

Regardless, I look forward to seeing the initial USA owner reports and sharing any comparative metrics with our two plug-in hybrids. Rest assured I am not here to troll for my rides but to provide facts and data ... insights.

About this forum, does it support TABLE tags and if so, what style?

Bob Wilson​

A former Marine, Chesty Puller is still remembered:

Source: These 13 Chesty Puller quotes show why Marines will love and respect him forever

Bob Wilson

 

Here is the conclusion from a very thorough real world comparison:

"The Toyota Prius has undoubtedly been the most efficient model of this comparison"

"The shared feeling of the people who have done this test is that the Prius is more inclined to move in completely electric mode than the IONIQ and, above all, the Niro. This may be the reason why the difference in consumption between the Prius and the IONIQ has been greater in the routes where there was more section of the city than in those that included a majority of expressway and expressways."

The article is in Spanish but google does a pretty good job translating. Here is a link:

Pruebas de consumo: Hyundai IONIQ vs KIA Niro vs Toyota Prius | Engendro Mecánico

 

Sounds just like any other fixed geared auto, running planetaries for ECVT is more efficient in the city so an expected result.

So the Hyundai is a highway car like a gen i Honda Insight.

 

welcome to the dark side bob


not a trap honest guv


yep you are correct, the hybrid and full EV are due in the next few weeks the guys in the US are being told, with apparently California getting the first deliveries


plugin due UK june / july 2017 with US currently the coming next winter (see attached image) I note the hybrid has been changed to"available now" which is not what we are hearing from our US colleagues


to be honest we don't know much about the plugin yet, there is a thread here PHEV - what is known so far?


looks like you have had good service from your Toyota Prius's, all we ask is you have an open mind and ask anything you want and we will try and answer to the best of our ability


You Prius owners have knowledge about hybrids etc that we don't so hopefully we can share knowledge in both directions


BC1

 

from over on the other side Prius Plug-in launches with £3k cut | Business Car Manager

looks like Toyota may be cutting some prices in response to the Ioniq prices, good news for you guys if it means you get your cars cheaper

so longer range than the Ioniq plugin (30 mile range from what we currently know) but lower total hybrid power, lower top speed and slower 0-62

but it depends how much you want the EV range or go faster / top speeds, and as we know currently no EPA figures for the Ioniq plugin yet to compare

Prius plugin spec looks good from what I have seen as well

 

I joined that group less to be a fan-boy as much as share how an engineer approaches figuring out our rides. It would be unfair to advocate for a plug-in BMW or Prius Prime when the Ioniq community only has in the EU+UK the hybrid and EV. No doubt Clarkson and crew are planning to pan the Ioniq.

Understanding how to deal with the faux news from Murdock news and allies, the Prius community, especially @john1701a are experienced with their concept of truth.

Hyundai screwed up by citing the Prius and BMW by name like VW did with their clean diesel lie. So when the truth came out, VW had few friends.

I am hoping we can do something more useful and maybe suggest Hyundai management might study the lessons of Buddha and Jesus and walk away from what they have been doing in 2016.

Bob Wilson

 

we probably won't be able to get a good comparison between the prius and Ioniq hybrids for 6-12 months until reasonable numbers are on the road to get fuel and reliability data (particurly the Ioniq as it has so much new / untried tech from Hyundai)

also then we will have a better understanding of the reception of both cars in the US market, the new prius will sell well without a doubt, what will be interesting to watch will be if the Ioniq sells in any numbers in the US like it appears to be doing in Europe, as the markets are so different but smaller compact European cars do seem to be making some inroads in the US market from what I have seen

by which time hopefully the Ioniq plugin will finally make an appearance and the comparison with the prius plugin will then begin, but the scene will have been set by the reception of hybrid and EV

after the research I have done I love the elegant simplicity of the eCVT in the prius but it is not for me, but simple normally means reliable which from what I have seen over here you guys can prove it

 

Clarkson don't like anything that is reasonably economical and don't do 0-62 in less than 5 seconds, I think he likes hybrid / EV's less than diesels

will be interesting to see if top gear with Matt le blanc do a head to head with the new Prius and Ioniq
, a drag race down the air strip would decide the "which is quicker" but it would be interesting to see the acceleration between the two types of drive trains, I suspect one would be quicker off the line then the other would catch up as the speed rises due to the difference in the eCVT and DSG

 

Does anybody have a link to a site that clearly and fully explains and depicts how the Hyundai hybrid drive train works? I like to visualize how my Prius works (which took quite a bit of study). I would like to do the same with the Ioniq.

For example, I would like to know how the regenerative braking is accomplished with just one electric motor. I would also like to know under what conditions the ICE charges the battery. Since one electric motor cannot generate electricity and provide torque to the drivetrain at the same time, does the battery and motor run out of juice under some conditions?

I live at the foot of Pikes Peak and often drive up Ute Pass to the town of Woodland Park. It is a 12 mile drive with a 2000 foot elevation gain, nearly but not all uphill and with varying grades. With the Prius I know that the power splitting device sends some power to generate electricity so that MG2 can keep providing torque. It is no sports car but I have no trouble maintaining plenty of speed on this stretch.

So, I would love to picture how the Ioniq would function and feel under this condition. I understand that the Ioniq can downshift (which the Prius can't, thus the need for torque from MG2), but would that be sufficient and would the 6 speed transmission do much hunting for the right gear?

 

This is one of the areas where the Ioniq forum would be a good place to start. You might also survey the SAE papers which come out in April for ones from Hyundai.

What is needed is someone with engineering self-discipline and either Ioniq to:

1. Find and subscribe to the Hyundai equivalent of the Toyota Technical Information Service
2. Do basic engineering metrics using stock instrumentation
3. Look for the Hyundai diagnostic system(s)
4. Try standard, recording OBD diagnostic tools to get basic metrics

I've been in a life-long struggle against the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Yes, entropy will always win but we don't have to surrender without a fight. We can address the basic physics and share common techniques and approaches. This is not something non-technical 'fan-boys' are interested in or skilled enough to understand.

I am happy to report both forums, the Prius and Ioniq have an 'ignore user' option. This can 'turn up the squelch' so serious people can discuss the facts and data.

Bob Wilson

 

So, as far as I know, except during shifting and when in park or neutral, the electric motor would be engaged to the wheels. Therefore, regenerative braking would be accomplished by the inverter configuring the motor as a generator, the same way that the Prius inverter configures its MG2 as a generator.

The reason that the Prius needs to generate with one MG while providing torque with the other MG is to change the effective gear ratio between the engine and the wheels, due to how its gearing system works. In the Ioniq, though, because the engine is directly connected to the wheels at one of six fixed gear ratios when it's running, there's no need for that.

So, will it be sufficient? Assuming the Ioniq has enough power to do the job (and the engine is more powerful than the Prius's), yes - fundamentally, the Ioniq is working on the same concept as most conventional non-hybrids. However, the Prius can put the engine at exactly the optimal speed for the load you're placing on it, whereas the Ioniq cannot - this may mean that the engine speed varies around the full power point in a wide open throttle climb, or it may mean that efficiency is reduced by too low (requiring more help than normal from the electric motor) or too high (requiring more power to be pulled off the engine and sent to the battery by the electric motor) RPM. It's worth noting that reviews so far have said that despite having more power, the Ioniq's slower at accelerating...

Will the transmission hunt for gears? That's a subjective thing, and that's up to how Hyundai tuned it. The only way to find out is to drive it, or read driving impressions. They may have decided to use electric torque to reduce the need to shift, which would make it hunt less. Alternately, they could aggressively try to get as close as possible to the most efficient point, which would make it hunt more.

 

Yes, your explanation of how the Prius and of how the Ionic gear box operates is consistent of my understanding (and therefore must be right). What I am not clear about is when the Ionic electric motor augments the ICE. It's got to do it sometimes, otherwise why have a hybrid. Even with the ability to change physical gear ratios, my understanding is that electric motors are more efficient at acceleration.

Maybe, in my uphill mountain scenario, the electric motor would allow the Ionic to stay in a higher gear longer and then shift to a lower gear if the battery runs low.

We have 20 years of experience with Toyota Hybrids, so they are very well understood. I would just like to know more about the subtleties of the Hyundai hybrids.

 

It all depends on how Hyundai responds to driver power requests, and a lot of this will only really be measured by actually driving the cars, and seeing what they do.

It's likely that the car will use more electric at a high state of charge than a low state of charge - more important to make room for energy when it's full, more power delivery capability from the battery when it's full - but we don't know how it'll use the battery.

Also, note that all energy to propel the car ultimately comes from the gasoline engine. So, while reusing stored energy from the battery to propel the vehicle is what's most efficient... that's only until the battery runs out, and it may be more efficient to use the engine along with stored energy, to keep the engine from having to go into a high RPM regime to satisfy the demand.

 

on the ICE there is a belt driven starter generator which can charge the HV battery, and it also uses the HV battery to start the ICE

between this and the electric motor i believe there is a clutch to seperate the ICE from the rest of the drive train, this allows the ICE to charge the HV battery while using the electric motor for traction, it also means from cold start when waiting at junctions / lights etc the ICE still runs at about 2000rpm to charge the HV battery and speed the warmup of the ICE (unlike the prius there is no button on the Ioniq to prevent the ICE starting if you just want to move a few feet on the drive)

the other side of the clutch is a slim electric motor which can server as a generator for the regen braking, and behind that is the DSG gearbox

so the Ioniq has the ICE and 1 electric traction motor, and the generator on the ICE as well as the traction motor (when in regen mode) to charge the battery

pulling away it does initially on electric only then once moving if required the ICE takes over or assists the electric motor

at cruise it is either the electric motor on its own, or the ICE, but if high speed or steep incline the ICE and motor work together to reduce the power needed from the ICE to bring down the fuel consumption

if the ICE is running and the motor is not required then the ICE starter generator will charge the HV battery

when you lift off the gas the electric motor acts as a generator for the regen brakingand the ICE turns off and the clutch disconnects it from the drivetrain

the only thing it don't seem to do is when on ICE only to use the electric motor in regen mode to charge the battery

the use of the DSG also means the electric motor don't have to spin at such high speeds on motorway / highway, which may be part of teh reason it has better economy on those roads where the eCVT give the Prius better economy in town

pro's and con's to both approaches it seems

as to the regen braking, due to the electric motor being the ICE side of the DSG gearbox as you slow down and the gearbox changes down you do get very slight increases in brake force as the motor spins quicker with each down shift and the motor is generating more power, similar to a manual / stick shift if you use engine braking as you down shift

i have seen a few videos / presentations on the web about all this, i will try and find a few links for you, but i hope the above helps

 

Hyundai IONIQ Electric To Hit Showrooms In April, PHEV IONIQ In Q4 2017
i would questions Hyundai's abilty to organise getting drunk in brewery, they just can't get there act together over dates

and the plugin still dissappearing into the sunset

 

Those aren't North American spec Ioniq/Niros. At the very least, the cars won't have a 12 volt battery over here.

The Sonata hybrid has a higher than city EPA rating, yet the Ioniq manages the same or slightly higher rating city to highway.

The system has the motor between the transmission with two clutches. So the motor can be decoupled from the ICE, the transmission, or both. I've only come across a video of Honda's dual clutch system. It's a similar concept, but different enough that the video wouldn't apply.

You only need one motor for regen braking. M/G1 might do some braking at times, but M/G2 is the one doing the job alone the majority of the time. Hyundai puts a mild hybrid system on the front end of the ICE. The hybrid generator starter (HSG) replaces the starter and alternator. It could also do some regen braking, in theory, but I don't know about in practice. The unit is 10kW, so any series hybrid operation is very unlikely.

From Cleanmpg's cross country drive with the Niro, it is known the system will pulse and glide automatically like the Sonata hybrids while cruising. The car will drive on electric power until the battery is depleted, then brings the ICE on for propulsion and charging, and repeats the process without driver input. They reported heavy EV use in heavy traffic, resulting high efficiency under those conditions.

The DCT is also used in ICE only models, so its cost is shared with a few hundred thousand units. The battery having almost twice the capacity of the Prius one will also eat for of the smaller motor cost savings.

The PHEV having a higher cost gap is a good thing for those that only want the hybrid. The starting MSRP difference in the US between the Ioniq and Prius is nearly $2500. Installing a larger, PHEV sized motor in the hybrid will reduce that price advantage, and likely won't yield better fuel economy for it.