Featured if you are looking at a new plugin or EV which is more important, range or MPGe?

Though might also be speaking from the view in their hometown; different markets have different commute ranges and energy costs.

But range is a big one in regards to BEVs. Doesn't matter how efficient the car is if it can't get you there.

That would help sales, but I think many people just need to come to the realization that their preconceived notions don't have too apply to every car in their stable. PHEVs can help a lot in that regard.

We still don't know the most important spec on the Ioniq Electric; price. 200+ miles of range is easier for people accept, and make the switch, but a low enough price on the Hyundai, and they might reconsider how much range they actually need.

 

Many people want 1000 ev miles in a Suburban like vehicle, needless to say unless batteries become cheaper than dirt and lighter there is no point in worrying about "those" people or what they want.

My belief is that what people actually buy can be easily changed by making certain things cost more.

Sadly no one likes removing subsidies or making "windfall" or supply side taxes so it probably won't happen "safely"

As for Hyundai they are having an aggressive reorganization in the midst of their products being wrong for the Average pickup truck driving American.

We can hope we get the Gen Ii Ioniq with the 200 mile battery but I'm worried we won't get the BEV or PHEV Ioniq at all, given current politics. The Ioniq is #2 on mass market range among BEV cars a normal human could afford.

If it's priced well, I would own one over a Leaf but not until it's out a few years.

Ah well

 

Let's look at Tesla:

- Initially they offered a low-cost version of the Model S with a range of 140 miles.
- Customers did not buy it. They wanted the higher 200+ mile versions, even though that meant paying $10,000 more.
- By voting with their dollars, they showed what they prioritized (more miles).

As for EVs, the government of California has no plans to remove its requirement for Zero Emission Vehicles. The demand is still there.

 

Did this in a 2017 Volt, using winter blend gas and driving 70 mph ( 112 kph) on the 95% highway commute. While a Bolt and a Tesla could have also done this, I wouldn't want to have to wait around to find a charging station, so didn't mind burning a little gas. Still managed to beat the EPA rating of 42 mpg as well.

Switched the gas engine off when I was about 25 miles away from home in an attempt to use up the remaining electric charge (I can usually get 14.4 kWh before it runs out), but due to a combination of slower speed and it being "warm" for a February in Wisconsin, I made it home with 7 miles left on the battery's "guess-o-meter" display (nicknamed that because its estimates can vary wildly, mostly due to temps, the terrain, and how fast you drive it. It's usually fairly accurate though).



True, a Prius could do this too, and probably use even less gas. But then that brings me to my second point.

In my normal daily 40 mile work commute, I can do it entirely on electric, unless temps are so cold that ERDTT (engine running due to temperature, basically when it's 15 degrees or less) kicks in.



This is the main reason why I said in my earlier post that range was more important than mpge.

Of course, another big issue is explaining this stuff to the average joe and jane who hasn't researched plug-ins thoroughly on their own in the first place.

That's why telling them a car's EV range makes more sense to them than the car's mpge. They may not care about saving the "green" in the environment, but I'm sure they all would love to save the "green" in their wallet.

 

Hyndai has already gone through the trouble of getting the Ioniq Electric EPA certified. The only BEV in which that was done, and sales to the general public cancelled was the iQ EV, and that happened because it would have been the lowest ranged BEV on the market. Hyundai has also stated they plan a longer range trim for 2018; it won't take until gen2. The PHEV version was always planned for Later. I believe it was mostly to not interfere with the hybrid rollout.

The only ZEV credit cars Hyundai/Kia have are the Tuscan FCEV and Soul EV. The first is selling poorly, and the second is already outranged by the Bolt and Leaf at this point. The Ioniq Electric will at least arrive as a compliance vehicle until things settle down within Hyundai.

The Model S is a high end luxury car with a price to match. The proposed 40kWh trim would have been at least $40k.

people buying Leafs would not have paid $10k more for a 200 mile range one. Going by the incentives seen on the car, they aren't even willing to pay the $30k plus MSRP on the 100 mile one.

So yes, people willing and able to buy a car that has a price tag that can run over six figures paid a premium for more range. The majority of car shoppers aren't willing to pay such extra amounts on what will most likely be a commuter only car for them.

 

An inhibitor to EV adoption (or even plug-ins) is the current availability of overnight charging stations. Many people park on the street. Many rent in buildings where there are no outlets or charging stations . Many people live in condos where there are no outlets or charging stations. Many people are going to move in the next few years and so don't want to invest in a charging circuit. Some folks look at the state of home charging and think the technology is changing enough so now is not the time to put one in.

Add in the people who commute to work but park in buildings where no chargers are available.

Add in the unexpected trips after/during work that press against or exceed the range barrier.

Add in the folks who understand the changing nature of work and the probability that their job locations and thus commuting distances and maybe even where they live are liable to change multiple times over their working life. What works now might not work then.

So after these folks are eliminated as potential buyers of current EVs, you are left with a small number of potential buyers.
Now look at the number of leases and are those folks going to be putting in charging stations?

 

Excellent point. It's precisely for these reasons that a substantial network (say 10x more dense than the current Tesla supercharging network) of fast charging (5-10 min to 80% of battery capacity) stations is a requirement to mainstream electric vehicles.

 

Disagree whole heartedly.
There are tens of millions of auto purchasers who have easy access to overnight charging.
Likewise, there are tens of millions of two car households. One travel vehicle and one around town is easy, and many families already do this.

Mainstream (as John defines it) will be reached in 2018.
As the charging network continues to expand, the potential market share will grow from its current 20%-30% of car buyers to 50%-75% and beyond.

 

If someone needs a charge at work, all they really need is a 120 volt outlet. It's slow, but the car is sitting for 9 hours, so plenty of time to add an extra 30-40 miles for that "unplanned" after work activity. With not too much cost, every employer could install the 120 volt outlets at every parking space near the building.

 

Isn't it obvious that people who can afford a high end luxury car don't see an extra $10K as a big deal?

Now image an EV that doesn't charge fast, that has only a range of 75 or 100 miles, but only costs $12k total. I think it would convince a lot of people to try an EV.
I'm not saying anyone can build this, but it would get a lot of people to reconsider their priorities. More than half the people have a round trip commute of less than 25-30 miles.

Mike

 

You mean the Mitsubishi I-Miev. Yeah it failed miserably..... lowest-selling EV made by a major company. (Though it is still available if you want one.)

No people want range. They are genuinely afraid of running out of electricity on the road, and they assume they have to wait several hours to recharge the thing. That's why the 140-mile Tesla didn't sell... people were afraid of that scenario.

 

left home at 7 a.m. this morning. drove 200 miles to ny, stopped for a 5 minute biology brake at 11 a.m., drove another 120 miles, pulled in from the jersey for 8 gallons of gas. (5 minutes) drove another 120 miles, 2nd biology brake, (5 minutes) drove another 85 miles to hotel, no charger available at any of the stops. 525 miles, 11 hours, 40 mpg. subway, bed, back on the road tomorrow morning.
plenty of room for local bev's. as for long distance, you have to want it.

 

A tesla would have added 20 minutes to your trip (stopping at a supercharger).

 

doubt it. can you point me to the superchargers on the 95 corridor, the time off and on the highway, the miles driven, the miles charged and the time to add those miles?

 

Well you only need ONE supercharger for your trip. The giant computer screen will provide a map, and you can pick the one approximately 300 miles south of Boston.

The time to supercharge is about 30 minutes. You said you wasted 15 minutes on gasoline & restroom breaks, so if you combine the charging & peeing into one stop..... then you only add 20 minutes to your trip.

BTW I find your lack of faith disturbing......
awww darn. The Force-choke doesn't work over the internet.

 

i have faith, it's the reality that escapes me. you want me to trade in my $30,000. hycam on a $100,000. tesla, so i can drive to florida once a year, and you can't even provide details to back up your pipe dreams?

 

You can get a nice Tesla for $40000 used (that's how I plan to get mine... no tradein; just add a second car). IF you had a tesla, then you'd simply pick any supercharger along I-95 and then make a 30 minute stop at 300 miles to recharge your car & visit the bathroom

 

nothing happens when i click on the map.

 

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An UCS study from when BEVs had 80 miles of range at the high end reported that 40% of US households could use a BEV for their second car. That alone would have a large impact in reducing petroleum use.

In regards to EV conversions, I heard of this rule of thirds; the BEV should have enough range that a third covers your regular trip out, a third for the trip back, and a third for any trips after and range reduction from weather.
I think 100 miles will become the minimum available range in future BEVs due to psychological reasons in buyers.

Except the iMiEV was twice the price of $12k, and only had a range a little over 60 miles.

People also want large SUVs that get the fuel economy of a Prius. Range will help sell BEVs at this point, but with exposure people will realize they overestimated their range needs. Unless they wanted to replace their ICE car, but that requires the support of a DC charging network. Most people that really want range will stick to an ICE/hybrid or go PHEV.

The Delaware House rest stop on 95 has Superchargers; I've seen them in person. Forgot where, but further south along the corridor, I saw a Chargepoint at this exit sign on our last trip too. Don't travel north, so I can't say what is that way.