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Poor fuel economy

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by Jerry Liebler, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    I'm the same driver, using the same mild hypermiling techniques but fuel economy is definitely worse in the 2013 PIP that replaced my 100% recycled 2012. What could be the cause???? I've got the grill blocked just like the 2012, I just put on new Bridgestone EP422+ tires and have them inflated to 51 PSI(sidewall limit). I removed the silly plastic rain gutters the previous owner had installed, what a job getting all the foam tape off without scratching the black paint. I've changed the oil, which I suspect was cheap non- synthetic & too thick, I've replaced the engine and cabin air filters which were really filthy. What's left? Ev range both estimated and actual both seem slightly better in the 2013 ( it now has 2910 total EV miles total & as received a total of 603 KW of charge). Torque reports ZERO total misfires, so it's not likely bad plugs. Since EV range is good it's not something like dragging brakes or a bad wheel bearing. What could cause what I estimate is a 5+ mpg shortfall?
     
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    How many miles on it?
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    what kind of tires did the old one have?

    how are you estimating mpg's? the only true measurement would be by the tankful and never plugging in.

    also, seasonality is a huge issue, so you'd have to have records from the same time frame.
     
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  4. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    37000 miles on 2013, old car had 38,000 on it. I have data and memory of old car in similar weather. I'm estimating mileage with the MFD trip odometer checked by actual miles and fill ups. On both cars MFD is about 5% optimistic. Old car had OE Bridgestone EP20's inflated to 50 PSI, new one has new EP 422's inflated to 51 PSI. I added a display of "volumetric" efficiency to my tablet running "Torque" and saw interesting results this morning as I drove about 50 miles each way to get a tankfull of "pure" gas (no ethanol) the efficiency goes up under higher load to about 55% but under light load its in the upper 30 % range. I'm thinking there is a vacuum line off or broken somewhere and will look carefully at them.
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    The brand new EP422 might be a factor; EP20 are very good.

    Jack up the rear and check how freely the wheels are turning, just for giggles.
     
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  6. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    Congraturations Mendle!
    I just jacked up the left rear & lo & behold the brakes are dragging quite noticably, disk is worn further disassembly in process.
    Dam this car sure wasn't driven by a typical Prius driver! all 4 rotors are worn severely all pads are nearly gone! all disks are severely pitted as well so I'm replacing the lot. I rarely use the brakes at all regen is usually sufficient.
     
    #6 Jerry Liebler, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i'll never giggle again.:oops:
     
  8. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Well lemmee clarify drag. Because they're disk brake, with integrated parking brake, a slight drag will be present, is normal. You should be able to give it a half-hearted spin and it'll go through at least one revolution.
    OTOH, if it's seriously dragging, feeling like a slightly applied parking brake, AND there's been a rear brake job in it's past, and maybe scoring on the discs, it could be misalignment between the pin on inside of inner pad and the spoke pattern on the face of the caliper piston.

    The caliper piston needs to be positioned (it can be rotated to achieve this) so that the pin on back of pad falls in between the spokes on that pattern, and STAY there, be well seated. If it's assembled correctly, and then brake pedal is pushed mulitple times, and then a slight test drive, and only then apply the parking brake (if needed), it should be good. If the piston is rotated so the pin is ON a spoke, or there's enough looseness after assembly that the piston can rotate (with parking brake application), you can end up with a skewed brake pad, and lots of drag.

    Without any disassembly you can just see a little bit of the inside face of the disc (at edge of dust shield), crawling under the car and shining a light. If about 50% of the contact width looks rusty, that would be a tip off of misalignment: only half the inner pad actually making contact, and excessive constant contact at that.
     
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  9. gallde

    gallde Active Member

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    Gosh, the only thing I can think of that would wear rotors as you describe is if the former owner lived on top of a hill and charged the car regularly. Then going down the hill could not use regen to brake and the friction brakes would actually have to be used!

     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    ya, my brakes are like brand new at 49,000, other than rust.
     
  11. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Woah, missed that. Maybe complete neglect, region with lots of salt. Caliper pin lube can dry up. Strange: 37K miles is not a lot. First major brake inspection was due at 30K or 3 years ; not that overdue.

    There's minimum rotor thickness, runout limit, and so on, in attachment:
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    Mendel, thank you for the attachment! All 4 rotors were worn well beyond allowable limits, both sides inner rear pads worn unevenly indicating improper assembly in the past. After replacing all pads and rotors rear wheels spin MUCH more freely. I did NOT diss-assemble any of the cylinders but did grease the caliper slide pins. I did position the rear pistons correctly with the notch over the "pin" on the inner pad. I redid the spin test after pumping the pedal and seeing that the brakes really work, they do! Even did a short test drive all EV of course and redid spin test. there is some drag but very much less than before. A decent spin will coast about 2 full revolutions.I really have a hard time explaining the wear, possibly used as a mail delivery vehicle with many low speed stops. Any way it's fixed and hopefully that is the end of my frustrating low fuel economy.. BTW it's 28 deg f in my garage and the HSI predicts 17.4 miles of EV range, more than I ever saw on the 2012.
     
    #12 Jerry Liebler, Jan 7, 2017
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  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    I botched the rear brakes, the first time I disassembled and put them together, got the pin riding up on the spoke. Six months later I noticed scoring on the outside of disks: took it all apart again, discovered the messed up inner pad, and partially messed up outer, it sort of ricochet's around. Gradually got my head around what was happening. I popped the disks off, installed brand new pads and shims, and just steel wooled the disks and re-installed, properly aligned pin.

    They spun much better, but when I test drove they sounded very noisy, pretty much constantly, and much more so when brakes applied. A day later, a bit better. A week later, could hardly hear. Another week or so, back to normal, and disks looked fine again too.

    The documentation had all the answers, but the presentation is terse, and doesn't explain the logic, or stress how imperative somethings are.

    Some pics, the disk condition, outer pad, inner pad (pin on back is near my thumb), the inside face of disk (note the rust zone) and the wear on the pin. Lastly the new pad set, ready to go in. :)

    upload_2017-1-7_20-38-39.jpeg
    upload_2017-1-7_20-38-56.jpeg
    upload_2017-1-7_20-39-5.jpeg
    upload_2017-1-7_20-39-14.jpeg
    upload_2017-1-7_20-39-46.png
    upload_2017-1-7_20-40-1.png
     
    #13 Mendel Leisk, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  14. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    Thanks to Toyota customer care, I found out that my car was originally sold in Vermont & they even gave me the selling dealer's phone #. Which I called. I had a long conversation with the dealer's service manager who told me that the brake wear was quite normal in that area due to lots of salt use on the roads, however, he was surprised that I had found the "pins" free and lubricated. The dealership last saw the car when it had 25,000 miles on it yet Toyota customer care had recorded service at 30,000 and 35,000 with the oil change at 30,000 done with non-synthetic (petroleum) oil. Toyota customer care suggested that I have a dealer do a "fuel consumption test" to see if the ICE is sick or not ( according to Toyota customer care, all dealers are equipped and trained to do this test).
     
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  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    possibly (never heard of it) and it sounds like they don't mind spending your money.:cool:
     
  16. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    • Well I did a reasonably long trip with the new brakes, tires @51PSI and grill block. Roads were wet in lite rain temperatures in mid 40f. Reset trip b after warm up and logged 190 miles round trip, avg speed 49 MPH, with a displayed fuel economy of 50 MPG. This is a trip I've made many times in the 2012 and under very similar conditions displayed 60-65 mpg. I simply don't need a dealer fuel consumption test! I have enough data to assert that this 2013 is operating the ICE differently that the 2012. WHY? Is there a bad sensor? Is the ECU program different? Is there premature wear of valves, cam, cylinders etc.? What diagnostics are available to pinpoint the PROBLEM?
     
  17. bisco

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    you could check for trouble codes, but if their aren't any dash lites on, it's unlikely. the only thing i can think of is a battery load test.
     
  18. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    There are no trouble codes according to "Torque". Do you mean the 12 volt battery?
     
  19. bisco

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    no the hybrid battery, but i suppose it makes sense to check the 12v first.
     
  20. Jerry Liebler

    Jerry Liebler Member

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    OK, looking at the 12 volt battery meant I had to get a 9 volt battery for my DVM. So with a fully charged PIP I drove to the nearby Dollar General, a round trip of 4.2 miles. Back home I parked in the garage and pulled the panels to get to the 12 volt battery. It reads 12.4 volts and is slowly dropping, like it had just been charged. About 15 minutes later I recheck it and it reads 12.2 volts so I plug the car in to charge. The 12 volt battery now reads 13.3 and is slowly rising. About an hour later the car is fully charged and the 12 volt battery reads 12.52 and it's voltage is falling. The garage temperature is 50 f. Another 1/2 hour and it's 12.38 and voltage is still falling slowly. I think it's time to replace the 12 volt battery! What do you think of these , in parallel, as a replacement? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/scooter-battery-e-bike-20ah-small-rechargeable-lifepo4-battery-1