Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

It's going to be interesting to see how this all shakes out. See the following:

Hyundai: Ioniq Hybrid achieves 58 mpg

Looking forward to real world, driver reports and experiences.

 

that's a tremendous claim. let's hope they got the testing right this time. another shot in the foot and they could wind up in c max territory.
that aside though, the bev may be the most important of the three down the road.

 

I'll be looking for it here: www.fueleconomy.gov

I checked it earlier today after posting the YouTube review. Still nothing. As VW and others have learned, the EPA has teeth ... for a while.

Bob Wilson

 

is there really that much of a difference between EPA; (the article states that)

and fueleconomy.gov?
Isn't EPA used for both pri & Hyundai apples to apples ?
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For technical details, I look for "Test Car List Data Files" in EPA.gov. Unfortunately, these are not updated as fast as www.fueleconomy.gov which is more consumer oriented. Still fueleconomy has the basic metrics and seems to update quickly when a car actually becomes available. Regardless, it is a single standard. But one late thought.

One of the things most car manufacturers do is build the key technology of their vehicles like the engines and transmissions. In this case, GM outsourced their batteries to Korea and small wonder that a Korean company is bringing competition that might put GM to shame. Yes, I know Hyundai are claiming to replace the Prius but there has never been a credible, GM challenge to the Prius.

If the IONIQ gets gasser owners to switch, it will be a good thing. But cannibalizing the Prius is sales limiting.

Bob Wilson

 

If Prius sales are cannibalized, that would mean Toyota would have to do an even better job in the future. Wouldn't that be a shame.

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Actually we need to see if it is a hatchback, Prius c, or Prius v competitor. This is what having a common standard does for us.

Bob Wilson

 

Is a single MPG going to matter once you get into the 50s?

Or styling, reputation, dealer availability, etc.

I live in a relatively small town, Hyundai opened a dealership, lasted maybe six months, replaced by a Ford dealership. Hyundai flourishes 40 miles away in either direction in much bigger cities. The Toyota dealer is maybe 4 miles away.

 

This is strictly a layman view of the Prius-Ioniq debate. I am taking the many articles I have read on both at face value. Acknowledging they could be wrong.

My confidence in Toyota's reliability elevates the Prius to my "short list."
OTOH, Consumer Reports has touted Hyundai's other models .... time will tell if the Ioniq enjoys the same praise.

Recognizing its personal .... but I favor pictures of the Ioniq over the Prius .... Inside and outside.

Fit & finish; comfort, finish, handling, performance will be determined when we actually see and get to test drive the Ioniq.

Fuel efficiency and performance:
Question - If the fuel efficiency numbers turn out to be correct ...... might it be attributed to the direct injection and the 6 speed transmission???? Several writers really do not like the CVT. Personally, I have not been too critical of the CVT.
Several writers have questioned why Toyota has not gone to direct injection?

Finally ..... I like what Hill said ..... "that would mean Toyota would have to do an even better job in the future."
I can't find any fault with that rationale.

 

Real world numbers show better-than-EPA MPG for the Prius...




2016 Toyota Prius Eco





(61.9MPG, well it may not be enough users to validate)

 

Mpg as a metric does not do very helpful comparisons. Litres per 100 km does, if someone would like to make the conversions of the figures for the two cars.

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

Most auto writers suffer the problem of lack of metrics. Exceptions are Car and Driver, Edmunds, and within limits, Consumer Reports. Most only have a single example but no tools or procedures to measure what they've got. It is one of the reasons why I favor the EPA metrics. They are not fastest but they are pretty committed to accuracy.

The problem with first year cars is discovery of what can't be found in the lab. The early Gen-3 Prius had a 'brake pause' problem that was reported by early buyers in December 2009 and resolved by a software patch in February 2010. As long as we all recognize these things will happen, no problem. The second or especially the third year is usually much more reliable because the recalls are incorporated at the factory.

I can sympathize as my wife and I have a hard time going lower than a Gen-3 Prius. Our BMW i3-REx has turned out to be a perfectly fine, microvan that fully meets our affordable, transportation needs.

As others pointed out, if we are looking at a difference of 1 MPG over 50 MPG, that is 2%, barely significant. In one respect, I'm faced with the same problem with our BMW i3-REx whose MPGe has been class leading in the lay press reported the Prius Prime MPGe. For any car, I'm content to wait until the EPA numbers come in. However, I saw the IONIQ architecture in January 2009:




So I can appreciate the fine details comparing eCVT and dual-clutch transmissions. Then I go to my single-gear ratio BMW i3-REx and my mind's eye sees the others with more weight and complexity. I like KISS.

I have no problem with competition too. But we are all waiting on IONIQ or something like it ... the Prius Prime ... another car model not found in the EPA www.fueleconomy.gov.

Bob Wilson

 

I recognize your stance, but don't care for the mixed message it sends.

The point of Prius Prime is to lead a way to the future. You can't just abruptly end production of the predecessor when it still hasn't been accepted as that yet. In other words, Toyota is taking the very risk our antagonistic posters have claimed they would not.

Had Camry & Corolla seen falling popularity in favor of hybrid replacements, transition to a plug would have been the obvious next step. Instead, we have Prius struggling in conditions with gas at $1.95 per gallon and leaders of the world having to address emission problems without constituency support.

That means risking cannibalization for the sake of reaching a wider group of buyers. Imagine if Toyota had made Prime exactly like the regular Prius... no raised floor and a 5th seat in back. It would have been a logistics nightmare. Know your audience.

Unfortunately, most people don't understand the complexities of all the elements at play. So, a seemingly simple message like yours could easily be misconstrued. Think about what the market will be like 3 years from now, when we are at mid-cycle with Prime and the regular Prius is on it's 4th year.

 

Fortunately only the Prius-illuminatii will ever see our musings.

Bob Wilson

 

The Ioniq and Prius engines are both up to 40% thermally efficient, for what it's worth. So, while direct injection may have helped Hyundai with tunability here (given that it's more powerful, smaller displacement, same expansion ratio (per this document from Hyundai Europe - unless that's a true compression ratio, and the expansion ratio is even higher), and Atkinson cycle still), I don't know that Toyota would've exceeded 40% with adding DI to the Prius motor (unless it let them run an even higher expansion ratio while avoiding detonation).

I really suspect that it's drivetrain efficiency where they're getting the gains. So, Hyundai is claiming 95.7% transmission efficiency, and 95% motor efficiency. In addition, Hyundai isn't sending ICE power through the electrical path unless the battery needs to be charged. This means that that 95.7% transmission efficiency is likely going to be in 5th gear (final drive is closer to 1:1 in 5th and 6th, 5th is nearly a 1:1 ratio itself), no matter what power demand is, whereas the Prius's transmission efficiency depends on vehicle speed and what the power flows are, due to ICE power regularly being sent down an electrical path. Also note that the Ioniq's big gains are at highway speeds, where 5th and 6th gear - the two most efficient gears - will get used a lot.

I found a study where the Gen 3 Prius's MG2 is 96% efficient, though...

In any case, I'm guessing that the Gen 4 Prius's ICE power delivery efficiency at highway speeds probably never drops below 80-85%, and could get into the mid to high 90s, but that's still significant.

 

You've raised a number guestions that might have to wait until Argonne Labs gets a chance to benchmark them ... assuming they don't get nuked.

Bob Wilson

 

Build 'em & they will come ...

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Bob, I've only had my Gen 4 for for days, although I've been active on PC since July. No way am I one of the illuminati, but I have learned so much from you and the many other subscribers. Though never an engineer, I believe I'm savvy enough to get the gist of much of these debates and also thoroughly enjoy your shared wisdom, hence many of the 'likes' I've given you.

 

Actually you are having taken the first step to enlightenment. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

ps. A word of caution, I sometimes have a dry sense of humor.

 

And in the US, since the president elect is a climate change denier and critical of the EPA, what will the regulations and prospects for future regulations and tax treatment be? Will they be at all favorable to EVs or any other high MPG car? I'm not trying to introduce politics here, just pointing out what the product planner have to deal with.