Why the BMW i3-REx

Glad you found Combo2. I made a typo. I think I pointed to the pics of the 6 (so far) DC FC connectors at Chevy Spark EV Forum • View topic - DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc. before.

It's probably just a pass thru.

These EVSEs are just J1772 in terms of protocol ( Basics of SAE J1772 : OpenEVSE Support ) but have Tesla's proprietary connector on them.
Tesla — Mobile Connector Bundle
Tesla — Wall Connector with 24' Cable

Tony Williams of QCP for the longest time has been selling Jesla, which just their UMC/Mobile Connector w/the Tesla connector cut off and J1772 handle attached. I bumped into him at a recent Cupertino EVent (he had a booth/table) and didn't realize he now has J-Wall, which is their above "wall connector" but again, with the Tesla connector replaced by a J1772 handle.

He's been doing the Jesla thing for a long time. Toyota Rav4 EV Forum • View topic - Tesla model S UMC with J1772 & JESLA(tm) conversion has some pics of his brother helping him do the work.

US Tesla Model S (and I believe X, as well) ship with a free Tesla — SAE J1772, so that they can be charged via J1772 EVSEs. We have a bunch of Model S and X and at my work, and sometimes I unplug or plug them in.

BTW, if you run BMW JAPAN : BMWグループが提案する持続可能な次世代モビリティ「BMW i3」および「BMW i8」を発表 thru a translator, you'll see that CHAdeMO is standard on the Japanese i3. There's at least one i3 driver in Japan who long ago posted some pics of CHAdeMO charging. I think they were repurposed at BMW i3 Gets CHAdeMO Charged In Japan.

Oh yeah, I asked Tony why he likes all these J names (e.g. Jesla, JdeMO, JLong, JStub, Jamp Jr, JDapter, etc.). His answer was along the lines of something unique that will come up in a Google search w/a name that nobody else has already used. (light bulb went on for me)

Prior to the above EVent, I last met him at a dinner in Sunnyvale where he'd come up to the Bay Area to do a bunch of JdeMO (
JdeMo charging for Rav4EV
) installs. It was mostly Rav4 EV drivers + one guy w/a VERY early Model X (was Signature Series unit #1). I think I was the only Leaf driver. It is funny to be able to DC FC a vehicle that never came with it as a choice. You have to CHAdeMO charge w/the hood up since the inlet ends up being under the hood.

He's working on adding CHAdeMO charging to Tesla Roadsters. I recall he wanted to also wanted to add it to the Tesla-powered (just like the Gen 2 Rav4 EV) Mercedes B-Class ED.

Semi-OT: You might find ChargePoint Introduces Us To The Little Monsters Of Plug In Electric Vehicle Charging cute.

 

And what else were they suppose to do, pay CHAdeMO the overpriced licensing fees they were asking? Being a standard doesn't mean it is open source. CHAdeMO would charge licensing to auto companies for just experimenting with it. I'm not discounting racism and nationalism, but their greed was a factor in hampering CHAdeMO's adoption outside of the Japanese brands.

Tesla had yet to open source their patents, so Supercharger use would have also involved negotiating with Tesla at the very least. Aside: CHAdeMO couldn't meet Tesla's power needs, which is why they developed Supercharger.

First, there is only two standards. Combo1 and Combo2 are the same standard with just a different plug. US hair dryers and phone chargers can't plug into an European wall socket. The J1772 plug for AC charging is the standard here, and the Mennekes one is the standard for it in Germany. With CCS being an add on to the existing AC charging plug and outlet, there was going to be two different ones for it.

CHAdeMO was developed by consortium of Japanese car and power companies. A network of chargers was already established in Japan before foreign plug ins came to market. So the i3 has CHAdeMO in Japan for the same reasons a Japanese plug in will have GB/T if sold in China.

 

Yep - Among my pictures - linked to my avatar are shots of the 1990s first gen RAV4ev in Japan. All of the U.S. ones had inductive paddle Chargers. Even back then - the handful of the japanese RAV4 ev's had CHAdeMO.
We'll have to see if we can hook Bob up w/ one of Tony's JdeMO's .... that could possibly get him from Alabama to Oklahoma, on the quick!
.

 

I don't know what the licensing fees were back then. Have a reputable source for the amounts?

The Frankenplug players should've gone with CHAdeMO, at least in the US, where there was already a small network of such DC FCs vs. 0. Our speculation on MNL for the longest time was that the Frankenplug player's intent was just to slow down Nissan by creating consumer confusion. Remember the whole DVD vs. DIVX debacle? Some people held off due to confusion or to "wait until there's one standard". Once DIVX died, DVDs took off. Hmmm...

The only serious CCS player in the US is BMW. GM, who tried to derail CHAdeMO hasn't put forth any serious effort judging by their puny # of vehicles that can even be DC FCed and refusal to fund infrastructure. VW may be forced to be more serious due to diesel-gate.

Was it really cheaper for the Frankenplug players to do the development work on Frankenplug and be left with a car with no infrastructure or to fund/subsidize infrastructure (ala BMW) vs. going w/an established CHAdeMO network and helping fund that? If they'd gone w/CHAdeMO and put in the same amount of funding into that as they have CCS, their vehicles could have access to FAR more DC FCs than they have now.

And there was already a network established of CHAdeMO DC FCs in the US before an unneeded SAE Combo standard arrived. As for Tesla, although I don't like fragmentation, their standard is arguably superior to both CHAdeMO (esp. the clunky connector) and CCS. And, Tesla is VERY serious about EVs and DC FCing them. They've put a LOT more wood behind their arrow in terms of DC FCing than any other automaker.

The Model S in Japan seems to come w/the CHAdeMO adapter in the trunk. One Japanese owner had the adapter (came in the trunk) WAY before it was for sale in the US.

I'm not so sure about that. TEPCO : Press Release | Establishment of CHAdeMO Association says CHAdeMO association was founded in March 2010. It references a preparatory committee in the previous August.

Yeah, if there's enough demand, Tony might be willing to embark on a JdeMO project for BMW i3s.

 

The thing is, the CHAdeMO network in the US was absolutely tiny when CCS was being developed, and CHAdeMO presents major packaging issues compared to the Frankenplug...

Also, until this year, the highest-announced power CHAdeMO standard was 62.5 kW, with 100 kW planned. CCS was planned to go further than that...

 

That's one of the usual excuses I hear from Frankenplug supporters. It's not like there is a huge shortage of space on a car body for an inlet. Maybe the only reason why people/automakers might care is because they want to do ICEV conversions instead of a built from the ground up EV, so they want to put the charging inlet where the gas hole was.

It's not like SAE Combo connector is that much smaller in terms of room required than a CHAdeMO inlet. It's just that AC and DC charging inlets are separate. But, Frankenplug as I pointed out has two flavors whereas CHAdeMO is a world standard (doesn't matter where in the world you are).

In the end, which makes more sense to the consumer? Less space taken up on the car for inlets vs. a far more ubiquitous charging network?

Creating additional fragmentation by players where most of its parties aren't serious about EVs nor DC FCing them, creating EVs not compatible with existing DC FC infrastructure, not putting wood behind their arrow (i.e. by not helping w/infrastructure build out and selling CA compliance cars in token numbers (e.g. the now 3 state Spark EV)) and creating consumer confusion doesn't help w/EV adoption.

 

What about the whole, CHAdeMO standard topping out at 100 kW, until this year, part, though?

CCS is planned to go much further, after all...

I agree that GM really needs to be taken to task for not deploying CCS, but BMW and VW are, and VW is now being forced to plow $2 billion into DCFC by the federal government...

Edit: Oh, and finally, regarding there being two flavors of CCS, are you proposing that the AC charge connector should be removed? Because there's two main flavors of that, too - J1772 and Mennekes. You will never see Mennekes-CCS in the US, you will never see J1772-CCS in Europe. And, CHAdeMO does not support AC charging...

 

CCS is using GreenPHY for the data channel, it appears.

 

Haven't seen anything on actual numbers, but it is the fact that they exist. Charger manufacturing companies had to get licensing to make CHAdeMO units, and charge networks have to pay annual fees. This is a hurdle to it being adopted by others.

CCS is like J1772, open source. There is no fees involved for parts makers and charging networks to use it.
Plug slugfest has vast EV implications
CHAdeMO - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DIVX were just DVDs with a limited number of plays. It was about the media studios being stifling in order reduce 'piracy'.

Perhaps the CCS players would have gone with CHAdeMO if there weren't those extra fees. Then how big was the network when CCS was announced? Nationwide growth for it wasn't being centrally organized and pushed like the SUpercharger one.

How many serious CHAdeMO players are in the US? I only see Nissan. Mitsubishi, who is now majority owned by Nissan, sells the iMiEV in tiny numbers. The Kia Soul is sold in limited states, making it compliance+, and Hyundai has committed to CCS for the Ioniq. Toyota uses CHAdeMO in Japan, but none of their plug ins sold here had it. Almost forgot the Mirai, but that CHAdeMO isn't for charging, but supplying emergency power for a home. The Clarity being shown has a CHAdeMO. It could be for charging the plug in versions or for the same reason as the Mirai on the FCEV. To be noted, Honda isn't part of the CHAdeMO Association.

It is a shame that GM isn't funding any CCS with the release of the BOLt. IMHO, I think this was to appease their dealer network. Unlike Toyota and hydrogen infrastructure, the Bolt doesn't need CCS to sell in respectable numbers though.

Tesla's is the best from where I'm sitting, and I'm hoping it gets adopted by the others. Perhaps Hyundai/Kia will be the first when their long range BEVs arrive. They have stated they'll built to what is available in the market already.

It isn't just about space for the plug. Being a separate plug means CHAdeMO needs to also have lines for communications. CCS just uses the ones on the J1772 or Mennekes plug that the car has to have. We might not see the extra cost as a big deal, but it can add up to one for the manufacturer.

How often do you take your car on vacations to Europe and Japan? Unlike a hair dryer or phone charger, cars aren't likely to leave the country or region they were sold in.

VHS was here first. We should have stuck with it.

How many CHAdeMO chargers were there in the US before the Leaf went on sale? Why won't CCS continue growing as more cars that use become available? Why would third party charger owners not install dual format?

It doesn't, but neither does charging fees because your standard was available first, nor waiting for competition before upgrading your standard for longer range BEVs either.

Not something I support, but CCS can support V2G while CHAdeMO can't at this time.

 

The CHAdeMO could have been aftermarket retrofits like some of the newer Rav4 EVs have, or they could have been a precursor standard to CHAdeMO.

 

That's right - CHAdeMO could be called Yazaki Rev II, but almost no one ever saw the original - rev1. Still - UC Irvine had one installed at our train station (before the began sucking up hydrogen $$) just for their ev experimentations. I took a picture of it some 18 years ago, before it was quietly removed.

Still got the picture after all this time. Don't know what happened to the yellow jacket i was wearing.
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I get that you're not confused, but you're not the average consumer. I've seen countless people refer to "Super charging" or "Supercharging" when talking about charging on the Leaf. Errr.... no, Leaf isn't Tesla Supercharging compatible. Don't use that term for DC FCing a non-Tesla!

Before Tesla — CHAdeMO Adapter existed, I've seen negative Plugshare check-ins on CHAdeMO DC FCs in my city where a Model S driver said basically he couldn't charge. Plug wouldn't fit. Duh!

How about this? WHY WONT IT FIT!?!?! - My Nissan Leaf Forum

If you poke around on mychevysparkev.com, there have been buyers of Spark EVs who have been lied to or misled that they could use the (CHAdeMO only) DC FCs around them.

On the BMW i3 Facebook group, it used to be not that infrequent where would someone would go to a CHAdeMO only DC FC w/their SAE Combo equipped i3, be puzzled and take a pic of the plug, asking what it is. And, there used to be sometimes people confused by DC FC plug standards asking questions.

 

My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that only a very few CHAdeMO or CCS chargers have been installed in Europe that are capable of more than "50 kW" (125A). There is an experimental public next generation charger installed in Norway and I think I heard of another in Germany. Obviously there are more at R&D labs. There are plans to install one later this year in California.

CHAdeMO is limited by specification today to 125A. CCS is likewise limited to 200A but public ones are essentially all 125A or less because that is all that the early generation 60-100 mile cars could make use of (with rare exceptions).

Both CHAdeMO and CCS are on similar schedule tracks to officially support 350A within a few months and companies that make chargers have products designed to the newly updated specification ready to sell when the specs are finalized. The CCS and possibly the CHAdeMO plugs may require active cooling at current above around 240A for long period charging although they might be able to go higher than 240A initially for a short time before heating up too much with just regular cables and passive cooling.

The Kia Soul and the Ioniq EV support "100 kW" 200A charging even though the Soul EV cannot achieve this normally because the CHAdeMO specification is supposed to support no more than 125A today. However, if you plug a Kia Soul EV into the 200A CHAdeMO charger in Norway it will accept up to around 69 kW.

Today's non-Tesla DC chargers are mostly clustered in metro locations and they are probably fine at 125A. The future chargers installed for long-distance driving on the highway will likely be 200A or faster. I'm guessing that most of them will be configured for the highest amperage possible without active liquid cable and plug cooling since that is more expensive and less reliable. This may be around 240A.

In another year or two there will be an additional specification update for CCS (and perhaps CHAdeMO) that will allow twice the voltage (up to 1000V) thus doubling the kW of the charger at the same amperage. This will allow even faster charging for premium cars with extra large batteries or for larger vehicles and trucks with big batteries. This future voltage doubling is known as "350 kW" since it will likely allow for 350A at 1000V.

In reality, charging voltage is limited by the design of the battery pack and the pack's state of charge. Most EVs today have battery packs with an average voltage of 350-400V.

 

i was confused just looking at the charge share map that bob posted. what a conglomeration of rube goldberg nightmares. never gonna get the general public on board with this approach.

 

People said the same about "regular", "premium", E85, diesel, plus and other varieties of fuel.
It isn't that big of a deal. If someone can download the plug share app, I am sure they can filter the results to show only their "flavor".

 

For whatever reason, I don't think anyone ever implemented the J1772 L1 DC charging specification. All DC charging is Level 2. I'm not certain, but I believe that Level 1 DC uses the same pins used for A/C charging on J1772 but there aren't any DC chargers that use a plain J1772 plug and there aren't any cars that implement DC charging without the extra CCS DC pins.