Honda UK has dropped ALL hybrids from its range!

My understanding is that when a VW breaks, it's much cheaper to fix in Europe, and more likely to be fixed on VW's dime. Like, about half as expensive. (And, the older automatics were terrible, but the Europeans didn't buy them.) So, that helps too.

 

Pricing in markets do not have to be the same, and then being an import, tack another 10% in tariffs onto the Prius. The locally make Auris and Yaris hybrids sell much better.

The Europeans generally drive less than Americans. So their cars see less wear and tear. Plus there is the national pride still, and they prefer manuals, which no Toyota hybrid has.

 

My '98 Passat 1.8 turbo 5-speed manual was made and imported from Germany... My mom's two Beetles were obviously built in Mexico (they are ALL built in Mexico, so if you have them there, that's where they were built), and the Golf/GTI production seems to move around, but last time I checked, the ones we get here are made in Brazil. Our current Jetta and Passat models are made in the USA and do not really resemble the models sold overseas. The ones we have are horribly boring and I would never buy one, even if it was the most reliable car on the market. The Camry has the market cornered for reliable, boring, and cheap to fix

 

Currently, the US Golf is built in Mexico (except for the Golf R), the European Golf (except for the SportWagen, which is built in Mexico) is built in Germany.

And, all Jettas (except maybe Chinese ones) are made in Mexico, it's only the US Passat that's made in the US.

 

I bought the Passat brand new and the GTI as a "fun car" while still owning the Passat. I eventually sold both and haven't gone back to a VW. My mom and step-dad, however, keep buying them

 

I was in Ireland a couple weekends ago and for the 2 days we rented a VW Golf and it was great compared to any VW I've been handed in the states to drive. But it still sucks compared to any of our Toyota's and especially a BEV or HEV.

I loved the size. The US versions look like a cartoon explosion happened inside and the whole thing ballooned up and outwards. But the brakes were awful and grabby. The engine was loud, noisy, and stinky. The gearing was also horrible. I would have loved to have a Prius C instead.

Honda has never been able to get their hybrids working well. I love Honda's. I have had, and have many of them. But the hybrids suck. There's a reason why we have 1 Honda Civic Hybrid and 3 Toyota/Lexus Hybrids.

 

Curious, but what is it about their system that sucks? I had a buddy with an 8th gen Civic hybrid that he drove to a bazillion miles (he drove places for work), and it was reliable and got great mileage, which was particularly impressive because it was a salvage wrecked car that he fixed and kept driving. No issues with the mechanicals of the car. I'm on my 3rd Honda and I love it, but have never driven a Honda Hybrid. To be honest, the Prius is the first and only hybrid I've ever driven, so I have no basis for comparison.

 

The system itself.

The "IMA" is "Integrated Motor Assist". There's a crappy little electric motor bolted on as an afterthought. It is basically a start/stop system, not a true hybrid in the pre-2006 models and it is a band-aid job in 2006 to current models. In the 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid of ours, you cannot creep forwards. If you creep, the engine turns on. You cannot drive at all on only electric, if the car is moving, the engine is going. The electric assist motor itself has no guts and it is coupled through a normal transmission so you still have gears, shifting, jerking, etc. The battery in the back means that the seats don't fold down between the trunk and passenger compartment and you lose a lot of capability.

The list goes on and on, but basically Honda just completely missed the boat. It is a terrible system when directly compared to Toyota's HSD. Forgivable in 1999 when it debuted, not in 2006 and definitely not today. Add to that the fact that Honda wanted that magical MPG number so it could compete with the Prius. They got the magic number at the expense of deeper discharge cycles on the traction pack. Our civic hybrid has had a traction pack replaced... twice.

If you drive a lot of highway miles, the hybrid system doesn't do much and will last quite a while. If you drive it in the city, the deep discharges will kill it much more quickly than a comparable Toyota.

Taking the civic up to the mountains once (first and last time) it was unable to maintain speed with 2 adults in it up the steep grades, slowing to just about 50mph with the pedal pushed to the floor. The tranny could not find a gear to get us to accelerate. Contrast that with the 2006 Prius which is affectionately called our "mountain goat" and it can take 4 full sized adults and 4 sets of skis, ski boots, suitcases, etc up the same hills at 80mph with the pedal pressed to the floor. It has any gear it wants all the time.

If my only experience with hybrids was with a Honda or Chevy style system, I don't think I would even consider a hybrid in the future. I truly believe that Honda and the big-3 with their "mild hybrid" systems set back the adoption of hybrids by selling junk of inferior quality to people. When the news outlets picked up stories about the Honda's needing pack replacements early, and lawsuits, and blah blah blah the idiot populace concluded that all hybrids are the same, this hybrid sucks, therefore all hybrids suck.

 

i had a '78 rabbit, didn't need a second stick in the eye to figure out what ze chermins were up to.

 

Yep, only a DECADE late to the party lol

 

Ok, that wiki page describes a series hybrid as something like the Volt, which is a gasoline generator connected to an entirely electric drivetrain. I do not think Hondas do that, nor do the GM "mild hybrids." Can you clarify?

 

This site describes the now defunct 2015 Accord Hybrid as working in a way that sure as heck sounds like a Prius... Sorry, I'm not a car n00b (I have swapped out a cam in an LT1 V8, mm'k?), but I *am* a hybrid n00b and it sure as heck doesn't sound different. Like.. at all.

Car Reviews - 2015 Honda Accord Sport Hybrid pricing and specifications

 

and still waiting...

 

So, here's a quick overview of the terminology and the hybrid systems I'm aware of in cars.

Type of hybridization:
Parallel hybrid: Engine and electric motor both drive the wheels
Serial hybrid: Engine drives a generator only, only electric motor drives the wheels
Parallel-serial hybrid: Some blend of the above approaches

Degree of hybridization:
Micro hybrid: Short-lived term for a start-stop system. Yes, it's stupid.
Mild hybrid: System that cannot propel the vehicle under electric power alone - older incarnations of Honda's IMA, as well as GM's eAssist count - this implies being a parallel hybrid (it's worth noting, however, that most diesel trains are a serial layout, but as they don't have a battery, they aren't considered hybrids, and they cannot move without the diesel engine supplying all electricity)
Full hybrid: System that is capable of propelling the vehicle under solely electric power
Plug-in hybrid: System that is designed to have the battery recharged from the electric grid, implies an extended ability to run under solely electric power (but performance may be diminished compared to running with the engine)
Extended range electric vehicle: General Motors marketing term for a plug-in hybrid that emphasizes the electric mode performance, and has sufficient range to be considered an "electric vehicle", but with an engine to extend the range when needed
BEVx: California Air Resources Board classification for a plug-in hybrid that has equal or greater electric mode range than gasoline mode range (this means a tiny fuel tank), with restrictions on when the gasoline generator can be started (currently 6% of battery available, cannot be commanded ahead of time)

Hybrid system implementations:
Belt Alternator-Starter/eAssist: Low power motor/generator mounted in place of the alternator on the accessory belt, acts as a (weak) mild parallel hybrid system
Various names (Honda Integrated Motor Assist, most manufacturer's hybrids that AREN'T Ford, Toyota, or GM): Electric motor/generator sits between engine and a conventional (whether manual, planetary automatic, single-clutch automatic, dual-clutch automatic, or CVT) gearbox, sometimes with an additional clutch to disconnect the engine from the motor/generator (typically newer systems have this), sometimes without it (Honda's original hybrids) - both mild and full hybrids can have this layout. This is another parallel system.
Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive: This one's an odd one - it's a variant of dual clutch transmission that is specifically designed around having a hybrid motor added to it. It's a parallel hybrid, but it's very hard to describe. Honda uses it on the Fit in Japan now.
Power-split hybrid (Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive, Ford's hybrids, GM 2-mode hybrids (some pickups, Voltec Gen 2 (Gen 2 Volt, new Malibu Hybrid)): Planetary gearset (sometimes two gearsets) with two motor/generators creates a virtual CVT - one motor/generator effectively acts to work against the engine to set the engine's RPM (and generate electricity), the other motor/generator is connected to the wheels. The engine also has a path to the wheels that's always present, though. GM's 2-mode variants add some clutches to set up different configurations of motors and gearsets. This is a form of parallel-serial system (some of the engine's power is sent serially, from the first motor to the second via an electrical path, but some is also sent mechanically through the gearset). Engine RPM is varied with load, which is why this is sometimes called an e-CVT - it drives like a CVT, but it's not a true CVT.
Serial hybrid with clutch (GM Voltec Gen 1 (Gen 1 Volt), Honda i-MMD (what's on this new Accord), whatever Mitsubishi calls the Outlander PHEV's system): This is another form of parallel-serial hybrid, but works very differently - it has two modes of operation. The first mode of operation is a serial hybrid mode - there's a large generator attached to the engine, a large motor attached to the wheels, and the engine's RPM is varied with load (hence these systems ALSO being called e-CVTs). However, unlike a "pure" serial hybrid, these systems have a clutch that can be engaged, to connect the engine to the wheels during higher speed cruising, and then run as a parallel hybrid - typically in the ballpark of 35-70 mph. There's only one gear ratio, so if that ratio is wrong for the current engine load and vehicle speed, it'll disengage the clutch and run as a serial hybrid again. Honda's system will actually cycle the engine if the vehicle demands less power than is optimum at the current RPM - recharge the battery with the excess power, shut off the engine, use that stored power to propel the vehicle, repeat when the battery's low.
Serial hybrid: Really, I described it above. The only car applications of a straight serial hybrid I'm aware of are the Fisker Karma and the BMW i3 REx. The VIA Motors VTrux is also a serial hybrid, in pickup form. Sometimes this might get described as an e-CVT, too, as engine RPM can be varied with load.

 

And the single motor system isn't IMA, and is a full a hybrid.

The old IMA system looks a lot like the parallel hybrid system that Hyundai has in the Sonata hybrid. The motor was sandwiched between the engine and traditional transmission. The big differences was that IMA didn't have clutches to decouple the motor, and the motor was very weak, around 15kW IIRC.

Hybrids can be classed by how much the electric side contributes to power. There are strong, or full, hybrids in which the electric side can actually move the car on its own, which is what most of the hybrid cars available now are.

At the other end is the weak, or mild hybrids. Their motor doesn't have the output to move the car, and they basically just provide the car with start/stop and regenerative braking. With a larger motor, a mild hybrid could provide some help to the ICE in moving the car. These are known as assist hybrids. IMA was differing degrees of assist systems.

Nothing wrong with the concept of mild or assist systems, as long as they are priced within their ability. The Honda Civic was priced around the same as the gen2 Prius, and then there was the corner cutting Honda took in battery management.

The 2015 Accord hybrid is the new two motor system. Honda skipped the 2016 MY of it, because they wanted to improve the system some, and move production back to Japan to be closer to their battery and hybrid component suppliers.