Driving experiences of 2000 Insight vs 2007 Prius

I had a 5-speed 2000 Insight for 15 years before it was totaled.

In my 2007 base Prius I have gone from familiar to more intimate in my understanding of this car.

How they are alike

• Both autostop once the coolant temp reaches about 140 F
• Both have a Cd of about 0.25 - about as good as you can get right now.
• The accelerator is sensitive to small changes in foot pressure. No feeling of raw power like say a Mustang or BMW.
• The dashboard sensitives the driver to fuel economy
• Both get great fuel economy.
• When the 12v battery starts to fail, you definitely want to replace it to avoid hurting the hybrid battery pack.

How they are different

• Prius is like the Mac OS 10.9 - Insight is like working from a Linux shell...not hard, but definitely more hands-on to drive.
• If you charted a given trip, the Prius is up-and-down a lot more due to the EV mode when it kicks in....instead of 40 then 90 mpg on the Insight, it's 30 then 99.9 mpg on the Prius. While I get a sudden spike in fuel economy when the Insight's lean burn kicks in, it's not as dramatic.
• Prius coolant temperature is much lower. The majority of the trip, my Insight reached 196 F might reach 204 F hot days. The Prius tends to stay around 140 - 160 F and occasionally get to 190 F. Have not had a warm day to drive the Prius yet.
• My right hand was on the stick shift (I had the MIMA controls to manually overide the electric motor) and OCD on my Insight. Now it's changing the MFD on my Prius.
• ScanGage display goes out on extended autostops and EV modes - something that did not happen on the Insight. ScanGage was unable to read the Insight's MPG (maybe it's the lean burn), but it was absurdly wrong. ScanGage is more useful on the Prius as the instant MPG is accurate, and you can have it right in front of you.
• The state-of-charge (SoC) varies more under normal operation on a healthy battery pack on a Prius than an Insight. Notably, when you "top off" a Prius battery pack, it will discharge - not the case on an Insight.
• The software on the Insight simply does not protect the battery pack as well as the Prius. One shop that refurbishes packs estimates the life expectancy on Honda packs is five years - Toyota is nine years.
• A Prius does not taper off for aerodynamics towards the back at all, but the Insight clearly does - you can see the rear wheels are closer if you look from behind near the ground. For that reason, a few have attempted the boatail in Aerocivic - Honda Civic modifications for maximum gas mileage - aerocivic.com on Gen I Insights, but only one has for the Prius as it's just too big to be safe.
• Insight can't do EV - Prius can
• Insight (with possible minor mods) is drivable if the hybrid system goes bad - Prius can't.
• The 5-speed Insight's ICE goes into lean burn at a moderate cruise to get diesel-like efficiency, but also more NO2 emissions like diesels. It's why it's got fantastic highway fuel economy.
• So obvious I almost did not bother to mention: 2 seats vs 4-5 seats.

Changes I wish Toyota would make to the Prius

• Display lifetime MPG. This is a good indicator of how well the car was treated. In Insight circles almost everybody got at least 50 mpg lifetime, so if someone was selling one with 45 or even 40 mpg, that was a huge red flag of rough treatment.
• Migrate more MFD info to the dashboard. Some of this may already have been done on the Gen III
• A harder one - go into a "light hybrid" mode for highway driving. The 2000-2006 5-speed Insight gets great highway fuel economy that can't be matched on a Prius unless it's a plug-in...I think it's the overhead/architecture of a full hybrid. The lean burn mode is what gives the 5-speed Insight superior highway fuel economy, but with it comes diesel-like emissions issue - that's why not many cars use lean burn.
• More aluminum / plastic like the Insight. I know - it's not going to be all aluminum, but why the front bumpers steel instead of plastic?

 

^ YES - the two rear wheels are closer together than the front wheels, and if you put your head to the pavement behind the Insight, you can see it. In Dec 2007 I was leaving a friend in Minneapolis on I 35 and avoided being one of 200 cars on the side - it was the ABS. Narrow tires like the 1998 CRX HF before (I consider the Insight just an extreme makeover of the CRX with aluminum replacing the chassis and body.) The CRX would have left the interstate on those conditions.

I drove Colorado a few times in the summer, and due to Honda's battery pack issues, would not recommend it in the Rockies. I 25 between Pueblo and Denver in particular....the long climb tends to trigger a recal on a healthy battery pack. It's a lot better on the pack with up-and-down driving like near Rocky Mtn Nat Park on US 36.

I did something crazy in Colorado. With the exception of running the engine for 100 yards, I let my Insight coast down the 19 miles of the Pikes Peak's Highway and got 1200 mpg! And a dead 12v battery / rundown battery pack. I got a jump from another vehicle and it was fine, but that was not good for the battery pack long-term leaving the ignition on with engine off over 45 minutes. Oh - I got 30 mpg driving up Pikes Peak, so the round trip was probably 29.99 mpg.

The last 4-5 years of my Insight's life it was essentially in a non-hybrid mode, but got nearly as good fuel economy. That can be attributed to the extensive use of aluminum, the lean burn mode that gives diesel-like efficiency, the aerodynamics. All the Insights 2000-2007 were built in the same factory as the Acura NSX supercar because they both used aluminum.

The IMA hybrid system is not the future, but two emerging trends the Insight pioneered is the use of lightweight materials and 1-liter, 3-cylinder engines...both Ford and GM make engines like this.

An aluminum body and frame might increase fuel economy 10-20% on a stock Prius. Many discussions on lightweight materials, but aluminum is more expensive to make and repair...part of the reason my Insight was declared totaled. One takeaway is when our high-tech cars get older, they are more likely to be totaled because it's more expensive to fix them. Mention has been made of carbon fibre. Advances have been made in making steel stronger - this technology is the most likely to be introduced into mainstream cars....if it's stronger, you need less of it.

BTW, I would not be beyond making homemade rear wheel covers for my Prius - a few already have.

 

On a previous thought, what if a Gen II Prius was 2000 pounds instead of 3000 pounds? That would increase fuel economy by at least 20 percent - the ICE could be smaller to get even better FE.

 

Jeff,

I had MIMA installed on my 2000 5-speed Insight. Let's see if my gut feeling is what I think you are going to say. I habitually used MIMA to increase the SoC from 19 to 20 bars - I strongly suspect you would have advised against that. My guess is I did heat damage and made the SoC memory shallower.

For those not familiar with MIMA, users often do like on a Prius with an EV switch and overestimate the capacity of their battery pack.

 

I have not modded my 2007 Prius yet, but the experience shows what a control freak I was with a 5-speed Insight with MIMA to control the hybrid function. My Prius seems to optimize my trip most of the time, leaving me without a lot to do. At times, controlling the SoC can be impossible - it will sometimes discharge @ 65-55% SoC even on level road without anything apparent to justify using the electric motors.

 

Mods I'm considering on the 2007 base Prius (not too ambitious)

• Grid charger
• Block heater
• EV switch
• Steering wheel cover (it's damaged)
• Polish headlights/tailights
• Install wide racing mirror and lose the side mirrors
• Shark fin antenna

More ambitious projects

• DIY paint/body job
  • Sane: Keep it metallic grey and touch up
  • Crazy: Repaint it white to keep it cooler during Texas summers....much more work
• Aero effects
  • Rear wheel covers like the Insight
  • Customized cover under the chassis using coroplast to improve Cd

 

Reason I listed the grid charger first is the traction pack problems with my 2000 Insight. The one on my 2007 Prius is doing good, but want to make sure it stays that way.

The block heater seems to be an easy install....wasn't there a guy named Wayne that installed a lot of them?

 

^ I tried a grid charger on the Insight five years ago, and the sizzling sound was probably the loss of a couple of cells. It was not anything as sophisticated as Prolong might offer...I'll get one for the Insight if I get another Honda - my 2000 Insight was totaled last Dec.

The 2007 Prius will eventually be the 2nd car to my next one. I could eventually get another 2000-2006 5-speed Insight, or plug-in, or BEV.

 

The grid charger I had I just plugged in - not instructions to discharge, charge, repeat 2 more times. So when I charged, then drove my Insight, it defaulted to charging a full traction pack and I heard a hiss - apparently a few cells rupturing.

 

This is an issue I hope is greatly improved in the Gen 4 Prius. And one that frustrates a former 2000 Honda Insight driver. We know about the four stages of warm up on a Prius. On a bunch of short trips tagged together, it seems like my Prius is spending a lot of time going thru those four stages again. Keep in mind the water temperature is at least 170F - engine is warmed up - just not running the last 5-10 minutes. It goes thru the four stages faster, but I hate to see the instant mpg @ 25-30 mpg with low to no load. To me this seems excessive, more than enough to keep the SoC in the traction pack good or make the ICE burn cleaner. On my 2000 Insight, I'd often cut the ICE and coast in neutral to avoid this in one of two ways (1) cut the ignition, (2) use the MIMA ICE cut switch which is safe and legal.

Does anyone know why the Prius is designed to behave this way?