Promoting Prius Prime by misleading about Prius PHV

I have come to the conclusion that 20 miles of EV range is the sweet spot for a PHEV. It is long enough to satisfy many Americans' wants in a plug in over their commute, yet the pack's size minimizes space compromises. With longer range, the battery needs more space, and it can reach a size where liquid temperature control of the battery is a must. All this adds price. Shorter saves on battery cost, but the battery support systems, the charger, become a larger percentage of the cost to go plug in. So the cost per EV mile can be higher.

Style is personal. My initial impression on seeing the first photos was more positive for the Prime than the gen4.

Much of the ado about the gen1 Volt not having 5 seats involved not being able to put a child seat in the middle. Even if targeting an older market, Prime buyers might need that middle seat for grandkids.

The rear seat being safer for kids mantra was likely part of the reason people were ok with losing the middle front seat. They also got big SUVs with three seat rows to replace their giant car with. If you can find a pick up with a regular cab, they still have the three across front seat of those old cars. The extended and crew cabs might also have them for seating for 6.

"Never charge in public" is the key. A very large majority of charging is done at home. After that, it is at work. Neither of which requires a faster charger.

My opinion on PHEVs and public charging is that the cars shouldn't use them. It has an ICE, use it. If public charging gets you to the point of 100% EV, then you should have bought a BEV, and you will waste gasoline of the inevitable maintenance cycle. It's a self correcting issue once people have to pay for their public charges and the numbers of public ones grow.

Then 240v for overnight charging is more for preconditioning the cabin from the grid.

The new Volt has only 3.7kW, because the majority of gen1 owners charge only at home at level 1 rates. Those that do charge at public chargers want the 6.6kW charger, but that would have increased the car's price to satisfy a minority. I do expect an option for it to arrive during the gen2's time.

Price is a major cited reason reason for delaying plug in adoption. A 6.6kW charger may not add much to the price tag, but every little bit helps. Having PHEVs hogging public chargers is a wonderful problem to have when it could be the chargers not being used due to lack of sales.

I'd like to think it is the same problem they had with the PiP; designing it for Japan. Two seats in the back might be seen as a sign of luxury, making it an easier sell. Final judgement is going to come down to price, and Toyota might be waiting on what Hyundai announces for the Ioniq and Kai Niro.

 

You're right in that I'm just sharing my own opinions. In fact, I actually I hope I'm wrong, as I really would like to see Toyota sell as many Prius varieties as possible (and I always try to push people to buy a Prius when I find they are looking to replace a car).

For price, I worry it will cost too much over the price of a gen 4 Prius Liftback, and get into the price point of Volt2, Model 3, Chevy Bolt, etc (partially since I read the huge center screen would be an option, not base, and partially based on the price point of the PiP Advanced with Tech Package price). If the price without credits is similar, then it makes it more expensive after credits since it has a smaller battery size.

For availability, I worry it will be available "nationwide" but not stocked in most states, which would keep the level of sales suppressed. This has more to do with dealerships stocking it if they think it will sell as opposed corporate decisions.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and people really are willing to pay extra for and looking for a 20 mile PHEV and only charge at home and work. The Ford Energi twins are selling better than the Volt2 after all. I thought it was related to discounts on them costing the same as a gas or regular hybrid, but maybe I'm incorrect and people really are craving for 20 miles of EV range and Toyota would not benefit from sales of larger battery vehicles.

Unfortunately, with the low price of gas, it will be tough to see these cars rise out of the ~2000/month in sales. In the meantime, those of us who realize all the benefits of fuel efficient vehicles will continue to reap the benefits of larger discounts while demand for trucks/SUVs are up.

 

The first Hybrid I looked at was the Camry - woops, no bootspace. Forget that. Plan B instead.

I don't understand why it went there - for a large FWD car, I'm sure they could have fitted a battery in more conveniently (or 2 smaller batteries). Civic hybrid was the same a decade+ ago.

 

I recommend nearly any hybrid.

I worried about what we'll see for final price. Corporate does have some say in what dealer carries. Some Chevy ones complained about being forced to take at least one Volt.

Well, the Energis do have a real fifth seat. They always did well when looking at the ratio of hybrid to PHEV sold; the take rate. The Energis consistently did better on that metric than their competition. The 2017 Fusion Energi will have increased range compared to the 2016. Compare Side-by-Side



I wouldn't discount the influence of discounts though. Both Ford and GM could be pushing their plug ins to counter the increased truck and SUV sales effect on CAFE. Same could be said about Toyota's incentives on the new Prius.

20 miles might be that sweet spot, but the Prime might have dropped it when came to minimizing the trade offs of having a large battery. If the Energis are doing well, because of that fifth seat, it does not bode well for the Prius Prime.

 

second version got a little better. not nearly the camry space though. i always figured it was because the cars weren't designed around the battery, but then came prime...

 

I keep reading all these "will it do 22 miles as reported, or might it actually do 32 miles EV -- non-highway driving" posts and really have to wonder if it makes a big difference per tank. I've been driving a GenIII (non-plug-in) since 2009, love it, and have always realized that for a 450-500 mile tank, that I can routinely count on ~15-20 miles of electric only distance just because it is a hybrid. Sadly, there is no display to offer up that info on any standard Prii for any generation. Sure wish there was though.

The opportunity to own a better engineered GenIV Prius, bonus it being a Prime, I figure it will offer the superior hybrid mileage PLUS the 22 to 32 miles EV they say. The additional bonus is that we get a (possibly better engineered) GenIV car to boot. The obvious con is the 4-seat capacity and probable price bump. My wife and I can live with the seating capacity. The prices - we'll see very soon.

The electrician is due in the next several weeks during our house remodel, and I am gambling that pre-wiring for a 240v 40A Level 2 EVSE plus a dedicated 15-amp 120v, is a good bet.

I have no realistic expectations of any Illinois dealer stocking the Prime. Ever. I reckon I'll be watching for a post from Dianne Whitmore in November of what Primes she has available. I'll probably be torn between waiting for Toyota running a sluggish sales promo mid 2017 or being an early 2016 adopter and getting my quick $4,200 tax credit in April 2017.

Toyota quality and reliability can't be beat. Hardly looking at Chevy and other options, as interesting as they may look on paper.

 

Such a break out won't give any real data. Any EV miles in a hybrid still trace their energy to the gasoline in the tank.

 

This is a known issue with PHEV owners who have a vehicle with an EV range right on the cusp of their typical daily drive. If they barely miss the mark, then the ICE runs for in the warmup phase for the last mile or two (or even blocks) to their destination netting very low mpg's. Ford came up with EV+ that uses gps to determine frequent destinations like home and work and will allow the use of a little bit more battery range than normal to get you there.

 

Yes, please buy a ford. Forget Toyota,s crummy engineering. You might run out of ev miles just before arriving at your destination. Now wouldn't that be a bummer. Also, prime has reduced hatch space, compared to ford.

 

We have no data yet how can you say?

 

Eyeball test.

 

And that augmentation is pretty easy to document by using a ScanGauge… even in the case that EV range is "depleted", there is still juice in the battery that's used during an end of trip warm-up cycle.

 

I trust your eyeball on Prime, but have you seen CMax energi to suggest it's better?

 

Lexus lost a hybrid SUV sale because they decided against offering the same red as the ICE version. Not everyone on the payroll is customer oriented.
--
GM's bigger problem isn't that they can't electrify their current customers. They don't know how to get the customers they pissed off back. Neither do I.

 

Yeah, the Energi does the same as observed via scangauge. The point being gas is still being used when it might not have to use any at all.

It's not. Numerically, the Energi hatch might end up a tad larger than the Prime because of height but the Prime would be more usable for most items. The Prime's battery height looks to be nearly identical the CMax hybrid that I had before I got an Energi. Even with a non-flat floor, it's very useful but the CMax Hybrid does have fold flat seating that the Prime won't.

 

John, I'm referring to a limited scenario of nearly reaching your destination (a matter of blocks); not needing X miles more EV. If you ever get to experience this feature, you'll understand. Plus as a software guy, you probably have a good grasp of how easy this would be to add to a vehicle that already has GPS.

 

That's quite nice cargo space I wonder why CMax is not a bigger customer fav compared to Fusion. I wish I knew outside-of-California sales maybe CA are the sedan fans for HOV. Def a Prime competitor.

 

people expect more mpg's from the c max, the reason why prius is more popular than hycam.