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Promoting Prius Prime by misleading about Prius PHV

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-2022)' started by john1701a, Jul 7, 2016.

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  1. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Applying no value whatsoever to the substitution of electricity in place of gas is the same sales challenge the regular Prius has had since the beginning.

    That perspective is a major problem for anything green.

    For that matter, you're far better off financially sticking with your old car.
     
    #21 john1701a, Jul 8, 2016
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  2. Sabby

    Sabby Active Member

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    Exactly - it is not a financial decision it is a lifestyle decision.


    I see the value in driving on electric power. I would pay a premium for it! My point is that when paying a premium an experience of just 22 miles falls far short of the current and future competition. Toyota needs to up their game if they really want to sell the Prime.
     
    #22 Sabby, Jul 8, 2016
  3. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That belief of more EV being better hasn't proven the case so far and continues without substance. It's not so simplistic.

    The true competition isn't other plug-in vehicles either.

    Consider audience and production cost. Then think about dealer inventory and salesperson incentive.
     
    #23 john1701a, Jul 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2016
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sabby, i agree with you on economics, but i feel that way about prius lift back as well. however, just because 22 miles doesn't work for you, that doesn't mean it isn't the right approach. it will work for some, and not for others. but that's true of every vehicle.
     
    #24 bisco, Jul 8, 2016
  5. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    Prime has a 6.6kW on-board charger. Should be ~2.5 hours at Level 2.
     
    #25 DavidA, Jul 9, 2016
  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    All of the mentions of charging have stated 3.3 for the rate. What is your source?
     
    #26 john1701a, Jul 9, 2016
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    either way, the 2.5 hours still seem to hold.
     
    #27 bisco, Jul 9, 2016
  8. Sarge

    Sarge Senior Member

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    We'll, in Canada it still saves a bit of money.

    I pay a fixed rate of $0.11/kWh (no TOU restriction), and gas is currently about $1.05/L in the Toronto area.

    I get about 18km on a charge, and my ChargePoint L2 shows a draw of 2.8 or 2.9kwh per charge (we have a Leaf too). So, I get about 6km per KW, so less than 2 cents per km.

    Assuming 4.7km/100km hybrid fuel efficiency, that would be about 0.047L per KM, which would be a hair under 5 cents per KM at current fuel prices.

    I can also charge at work sometimes, included in the cost of parking (which I write off for work). I drive a lot for work, have occasional convenience charge opportunity as well.

    Sure, the 18-20km only covers 1/3 of the 60km one-way typical trip, but I use the EV in the secondary roads and HV on the highway. In the two weeks I have had the PiP, my trips usually average about 3.5-4.0L/100km in blended use.

    And now I get *permanent* HOV privileges now in Ontario with my Green Plate. :)

    What's not to like? :cool:
     
    #28 Sarge, Jul 9, 2016
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  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The themes of "never enough" and "true competition" come up over and over again. Each new thread may touch the topic, but none really actually address it well. That's the challenge to overcome.

    Volt just plain didn't attract the attention of the masses, even when gas was really expense. It was those countless other factors of influence discussion struggle to get into. So, it tends to just fall back on more EV is better. Interestingly, the topic of Tesla popped up today at the barber shop. Even with the 200-mile range, that simply wasn't enough. They just dismissed the idea of electric-only travel and moved on.

    At least with some focus on 4 or 5 seats, we are seeing some movement beyond the trapped mindset of the past. Will people dismiss Prius Prime just as easily as Tesla was today? The supposed mass-market choices, like Volt and Leaf, certainly aren't coming up in conversations. Heck, we barely here mention of them here anymore.

    Signs of change are finally emerging. The old daily blog for Volt has been void of Volt topics for quite awhile now. It has transformed into another venue for plug-in support discussions. Posts no longer find Prius a competitor. Reality is finally sinking in that traditional vehicles are really the true competition.

    Consider how unappealing a plug-in vehicle is to a traditional salesperson. When you can get a commission that's larger and much easier, why bother? Selling a guzzler takes so little effort in comparison.

    That's where Prius Prime comes in. Even though some here don't like the approach, the lower production-cost (equating to higher commission) and obvious appeal of EV make a compelling reason for salespeople to actually try. A simple test-drive will be enough to get potential buyers to consider the purchase. That's hard to do with a regular Prius when you encounter a loyal Toyota customer on the showroom floor. But with the plug-in offering a new twist on being green, but not requiring significant compromise, there's opportunity.
     
    #29 john1701a, Jul 9, 2016
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    john, i think we're all just too dumb to understand what you're trying to say. you do have a way with words though.:p 'it was those countless other factors of influence discussion struggle to get into'.
     
    #30 bisco, Jul 9, 2016
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  11. Sabby

    Sabby Active Member

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    Funny thing about new technologies is that people adopt them pretty quickly if they meet a real need, make life easier or more enjoyable or are beneficial economically. Look at the tablet/ipad, cell phone and high definition TV and their adoption as mainstream items.

    Salesmen have little to do with the process if the product is compelling. This is Toyota's real challenge with the Prius Prime - make it a compelling product.

    John while your Barbershop thoughts regarding the Tesla are interesting, the 350,000+ people now standing in line to buy says something about the product. I wonder how many people aspire to own the Prius Prime and how long the waiting line is?
     
    #31 Sabby, Jul 9, 2016
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  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    How about this...

    Toyota is testing the high-volume possibility with this approach for RAV4.



    That (lengthy pre-orders) isn't the audience Toyota is targeting. Being compelling to a showroom shopper (immediate purchase) is quite different from early adopters without a dealership.
     
    #32 john1701a, Jul 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
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  13. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Hmmm. Math is making me believe it'll be more than 22 miles EV or a lot less than 2.5 hours charge time. At 2.5 hours and 3.3 kWh that works out to be 8.25 kW. Did they change the SOC ranges of the new battery? My current SOC measured ranges from OBD II data of 85.49% to 25.10%. Or about 2.65 kW useable from the 4.4 kW battery in the PiP. Of course as the charge gets towards "full" the amount of charge slows down, but that only accounts for the last 20 minutes or so. It'll be interesting to see the OBD II data from the Prime.
     
    #33 drash, Jul 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed. someone else mentioned closer to 30 miles in off highway driving.
     
    #34 bisco, Jul 9, 2016
  15. DavidA

    DavidA Prius owner since July 2009

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    I swear I read 6.6 somewhere. If it is only 3.3, then 2.5 hours seems rather not possible at 240v. I would guess 3 at best for a full charge.
     
    #35 DavidA, Jul 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  16. Jan Treur

    Jan Treur Active Member

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    Simple calculation: charging 2.5 hours at a 3.3 kW power level gives a charge of 2.5*3.3 = 8.25 kWh, while the usable part of the battery probably is only 65 or 70% of the 8.8 kWh. Even if you subtract the last 20 minutes, you have 2.2*3.3 = 7.26 kWh, which also is more than the usable part of the battery. So, by increasing the power level from 2.2 to 3.3 kW, indeed full charging becomes possible within 2.5 hours.

    Charging at the double 6.6 kW power level would make full charging in 1 hour possible, but as far as I have seen, nobody has claimed such a level of charging.
     
    #36 Jan Treur, Jul 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Chemistry improvements may allow a deeper discharge. There's some facts we simply won't find out until later. Not that it matters. We're hardly representative of the masses anyway.

    For ordinary consumers, the topic of PHV verses Prime really doesn't make any difference. Today provided a great example.

    At that new grocery store, just 0.6 mile from our house, there are 4 charging stations... free and in high traffic locations. (It's a pretty sweet setup.) That draws attention to the Prius PHV. I've had people stop to ask about what I think of owning a car with a plug. They aren't obsessed with detail like many of us here in the forum. They simply want to know about convenience & reliability. Oddly, price isn't asked about. It really is just a matter of having confidence in the technology. That's the key. That's what will help sell it.

    Today, my wife just stepped back and let me engage in a quick conversation with a passer-by. I answered a series of questions. Range wasn't even asked about. I eventually just mentioned my 72 MPG average and that the newer version coming out this Fall would do even better. Her curiosity, there in the parking lot, looked very much like what I anticipate at the dealership later with Prius Prime. Ordinary people will simply want to know more and the basics are all easy to convey.

    We learned from Volt that attracting attention of customers wandering around on the showroom floor, just randomly shopping with the hope of stumbling across something to excite them, is vital. GM still hasn't achieved that. Sales for Volt come from conquest. Rather than appealing to their own base, buyers are from other automakers. That's a major opportunity lost and a sign of hard times to come.

    The goal is to transition from traditional vehicles to cleaner more efficient choices. Not being able to appeal to your own loyal customers is a very big problem. Toyota is attempting to overcome that, trying to avoid falling into the same trap as GM. That's why Prius Prime doesn't fit the profile we've come to expect.

    Change is challenging. I'm quite optimistic this approach will break out beyond current barriers. 22 miles seems small to us. But to the them, the resulting MPG will blow their minds. It's easy to understand and will be effortless to achieve. That's a winning formula for drawing in the masses.
     
    #37 john1701a, Jul 10, 2016
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  18. zhenya

    zhenya Active Member

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    With my current Plug-in the advantage is really in around town, short trips, which for us are extremely common. For us, work, school, shopping, almost everything we do day to day is under 5 miles away, most of it under 3. That means a regular Prius is nearly always in its warm-up cycle and will average around 35mpg under the best situation here - under 30 in the winter. Whereas in electric mode there is no warm-up penalty.
     
    #38 zhenya, Jul 10, 2016
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  19. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Toyota doesn't let you use the entire battery. For the current PiP, Toyota uses about 60% of the battery. The battery never gets discharged less than ~25% and never gets charged more than ~85%. The new battery on the Prime must be using more than 5.3 kW if you used the same 60%. At 3.3 kWh the Prime battery should be able to be recharged in about 1 hour and 40 minutes. The articles I've read about the new battery are fairly generic with engineers saying the battery has higher operating temperature, stores more energy and can be recharged faster. To me this means they've lowered the internal resistance a lot over wider temperature and charging ranges.


    Unsupervised!
     
    #39 drash, Jul 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sometimes at the gas station, people will say to me, 'i thought you didn't have to put gas in those things'.
     
    #40 bisco, Jul 10, 2016
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