What I don't like about the Prius Prime

The potential cost of gasoline also needs to be a factor. Tesla has battery swapping technology that can change the pack out in 90 seconds. The station that had it closed because people would rather wait in line for a charger, and then wait for the charging than spend the $80 for the battery swap.

Then there are many households in this country with more than one car and access to charging that can make use of current, non-expansive BEVs. Sounds like you are one of them. Waiting for a BEV that the majority can use and buy is like waiting for the Prius to reach Camry sales figures before getting one.

As for the extra gas the Rav4 will use, don't look at the MPG figure, but what your household gas use is for a year. Yes, your Rav4 will use more gas during a trip, but you would be using none on daily use with a BEV. With the limited seating and cargo space of the Prime, you might end up taking the Rav4 anyway.

Is this another first? That the Prime defaults to EV and not EV Auto.

How is this any different than hybrid mode? Can the car be told to burn more gas to bring the charge up for later EV use?

We are lucky to get 29mpg in the Sale on the highway; 36mpg would be great. But since the Sable only sees 3000 miles per year, the no car payment and low insurance are bigger savings than the 40 or so gallons saved. As I said earlier, with plug ins you need to look at annual fuel use as opposed to trip use to determine the value there.

Have your sons tried the back seat of the gen4 yet? I don't see the Prime providing any more space there. So its better fuel economy might be moot for your choice.

 

Might be something related to what I asked for on the wish list a while back. I had asked why the PiP was constantly charging and discharging the PiP while in HV mode (just like a typical Prius) and I was driving on the highway. Because any ICE is more fuel efficient at a constant RPM, couldn't they use the extra charge/discharge cycles to instead smooth out the constant changing of ICE RPMs and store the extra in the battery? After all the Prius and PiP are one huge computer network. It seems to me like this is a software version of stacking. I'm not sure but I don't think this is a version of generator mode like the Volt or i3 REX.

 

ICE isn't necessarily more efficient at a constant RPM (especially when dealing with something like the 2ZR-FXE, which is designed to be efficient over a wider range of RPMs), and often the most efficient RPM isn't what gets you the power you require.

And, charging the battery with the ICE involves both electrical and charging losses, and then further electrical losses getting the charge back out of the battery. So, sometimes it's more efficient to charge (usually when the ICE demand is lower than the minimum efficient load), but those times will usually be when the battery's depleted to the point that the ICE needs to recharge it to maintain performance, or the vehicle is going fast enough that the ICE must be spinning - otherwise, you could just shut off the ICE and use electric power to propel the vehicle.

 

the pip defaults to ev, there is no ev auto.

 

Off Topic, but: Anyone else getting random "Database not available errors. Please try again." on priuschat?

 

once or twice. i figure it's my connection, or maybe i picked up a virus.

 

Not our computers - something going on with their Website. Probably WikiLeaks or some international hacking attempt.

 

It's the Russians.

 

Oh good - I've been wondering what's been going on, it's been days of this instability. I'm glad the site's at least working.

 

Put the red lights that are on the rear ?? Spoiler on a Prius hatch back and I'll buy ,,, the hatch back that is

 

I'm glad this has come up, because it brings us back to what an amazing piece of drivetrain engineering Toyota's HSD really is. Unlike Voltec, HSD is focused exclusively on maximizing fuel efficiency in a system where all the power comes from gasoline, and the results have been impressive. The idea of the PHEV (Volt, i3) or even HEV (Malibu, Accord) as "an EV with an on-board generator" is appealing to those fond of EV drivetrain performance characteristics and focused on a "pure" EV experience (I know I liked the idea), but the proof has to be in the pudding. If the "use gas only to generate electricity, and only electricity to power the drivetrain" way of designing a HEV were the best way to go (and yeah, I know nothing but the i3 really works that way, but practically speaking the "full hybrid" Honda and GM systems are pretty close when not cruising the freeway), that should show up in real world fuel economy, which so far does not appear to have been the case. Problematically, this does seem a good way to goose EPA test results, because Volts and Accords pretty consistently deliver lower MPG in independent "real world" testing than on EPA test cycles, while the Prius often does better than its EPA numbers. Of course, we've had this problem before and standards have been adjusted, so even that advantage may be a fleeting one.

Meanwhile, for all you green shoppers out there, caveat emptor. There's more to fuel efficiency than a Monroney sticker, so do your homework.

 

This has implications for EPA test results.

Which real world tests are these? On Fuelly, the gen3 Prius and new Accord hybrid are both 2 to 3 mpg lower than the combined EPA value. The gen4 is higher, but I didn't differentiate out the ECO trims, and the new EPA rules could have brought the sticker value down.

While there are the conversion losses in series hybrid mode, how that mode is implemented and ICE efficiency can't be ignored. In a power-split hybrid like HSD, there is a parallel and series path. The series path can be favored at times, because the parallel path would actually result in lower overall efficiency.

Then there is the ICE efficiency. Toyota has touted the gen4's engine's 40% thermal efficiency. That is the ICE's peak, best case efficiency. Because driving demands result in a wide range of ICE outputs, an ICE car's ICE will only be at that best case efficiency point of the time. A full hybrid system will increase that time spent there. A series hybrid in which the ICE is decoupled from the road can have the ICE at that peak efficiency all the time it is running.

The Accord hybrid is a bigger heavier car than the Prius. All else being equal, the extra 500 pounds means lower fuel economy. Yet the Accord had values real close to the Prius. On the city numbers, the Accord was 1mpg short. This is where the Honda is running in pure series mode, and the weight has a bigger effect. It is 3mpg on the highway test. This is when the Accord's higher drag coefficient, larger frontal higher, and the series hybrid losses start to add up. Which is why the ICE starts to clutch in at those speeds.

 

Fair enough, but in the end it still comes up short. When someone truly bests the Prius at its own game, matching both its economy and utility, I'll certainly acknowledge they have something special. Until then, my clearest memory of the Accord Hybrid is opening the trunk and laughing out loud - the car would be useless for a road trip, the defining requirement for our household's non-BEV. For a large, comfortable around-town car, it would be an attractive choice - but only with something more practical sitting next to it in the garage. As it stands, like the Volt, the Accord Hybrid is gifted with an operating range that would be difficult to exploit given its limited cargo space, and unlike the Volt (which can at least fold down its rear seats to create a capacious two-seater), the Accord Hybrid traveler would have to use the nicely upholstered back seat for ad hoc hauling duties. So I guess it's great if you just have a long daily commute and/or hate visiting the gas station. It does seem a bit much for a commuter or runabout, but I think I'm unusually indifferent to cushy transport.

 

Toyota is slowly killing off my interest !
It's about time for a few more details about the damned vehicle !

 

I got 'jumped-on' when I made a similar statement. But I agree with you completely.

 

We hear the same thing everytime and others rushing never seem to exhibit any benefit.

I went through this in 2000 then 2003 then 2009 then 2012. It's how Toyota operates. Set realistic expectations.

Patience.

 

All the midsize ICE sedans converted to a hybrid lose trunk space. Some manage it better than others, but it is still a large suitcase or couple of smaller ones lost in space. Until the gen4 put the pack under the seat, even the Prius lost cargo space to the battery pack. People just never saw it because there wasn't an ICE version to compare too.

Then cargo space needed is an individual requirement. We use a 2001 Sable for our long trips to my parents'. If we didn't travel with a medium size dog, two cats with single carriers, and the accompying food and litter pan, I could get our luggage into the Sonic without folding down the seats.

While the cute ute is gaining in popularity, the car buyers in the US prefer a sedan over a hatchback. The loss of trunk space hampers their hybrid sales, and the loss of cargo space will hamper the Prime's.

 

Sounds like a loss of perspective. The hatchback area is Prius Prime is dramatically larger than a sedan's trunk.

Bulky items can easily be transported.

What's the supposed problem? Don't give cubic-foot data either. That's clearly a red-herring.

What actual real-world cargo are you referring to?

 

Not if the driver doesn't want their view out the rear blocked. And while hatchback has more space than a trunk in general, the reports we have on the Prius Prime's cargo space is that loses over twice as much space as the available midsize hybrid sedans do.

Yes, that's why I like hatchbacks and wagons, but I don't leave the cars filled to the roof everyday.
With a flat cargo floor, the Prius Prime could carry even bulkier things, with less strain in loading them into the car. It could carry smaller items with less protrusion over the height of the seat backs. When cargo does that, it not only blocks the driver's view out the rear, but also have a greater potential of traveling into the passenger space and causing injury in the event of a crash.

How about you give some examples of real world cargo that the Prius Prime can carry, but not the Volt or C-max Energi.