Featured Perfect is often the enemy of good in the plug-in world

i would go work at the dealer, but i don't want to wear a 10 year old armani suit and stand outside the door smoking all day.

 

Or last week for me and my BMW.

Bob Wilson

 

Good to know ... that means my grandkids will be able to drive a 35-mile range Toyota plug-in.

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oh no, they'll be much higher up the ladder.









Merged.

you don't count, you're not 'mainstream'.

 

Just u wait ..... someday white tube socks and flip-flops will be back in style

 

When I look at the monthly sales report card I see for May:

1903 Volts
4 PiPs

If Toyota is more "interested" in selling a PHEV than GM, they sure show it in a very strange way.

 

Reality is, the gen-2 inventory of Volt is very limited... quite the opposite of what everyone had been hoping for, so long after rollout.

We know Toyota production of PiP ended a year ago due to gen-4 rollout (which requires lithium battery production ramp-up) along with prep for Prius Prime. So the reference to sales is clearly a red-herring.

Why isn't GM producing more gen-2 Volt to sell?

 

Production constraints initially. The battery that goes in the Volt is not that small and GM made it clear that other component production limitations caused the 2016 version to be limited to CARB locations for some months. As for the sales mismatch, that is not a red herring but in fact the only evaluation criteria that matters in the end.

 

That has nothing to do with 2017 model production.

The reason you're obviously avoiding is the limitation being heavily influenced by the number of tax-credits remaining.

We've all seen how 200-mile EV offerings wrecked the "range anxiety" selling point. That puts Volt in an awkward position.

The hope is to discuss next steps and proper setting of expectations. That won't happen without acknowledgement.

 

As a rung in the ladder, the Prime is one only slightly higher if the buyer values the Toyota brand. The improved CS fuel economy can be another plus, but I believe that isn't has high a consideration for the majority as it is for most of us posting here.

Beyond being another plug in option, the Prius Prime doesn't advance the PHEV towards the mainstream than any other model currently available. The only improvement over the others is with the ICE fuel efficiency, but this isn't the big hold up of plug in adoption. One is something hybrids can suffer from, the loss of utility compared to a traditional car. Then the big one is the price. In all fairness, Toyota hasn't released the Prime's price yet, so maybe that will be where it moves progress along, but there isn't any inclination that will be the case at this time.

I haven't seen how a 2000 mile BEV has wrecked the range anxiety selling point. Any examples of this?
Tesla is probably the only one with a well distributed, reliable, and nationwide fast DC charging network at this point. At this point, only their cars can use it, and the cheapest model they have now starts at twice the Volt's price. The Model 3 won't arrive until after the Bolt, which won't here until the beginning of next year. Once lifetime Supercharger access is added, its price will be up there with the Bolt's, putting them $3k to $4k more than the Volt. Even with fast DC charging access, some people will still prefer the speed of liquid fuel refueling.

I haven't seen anyone make the claim that plug ins don't have to come down in price in order to be successful. How about some acknowledgement that the gen2 Volt did drop its price from the gen1 by nearly the amount of the federal tax credit, while also addressing the gen1's shortcomings?

As to GM limiting gen2 Volt availability in order to maximize the tax credits available to them, why is that such a horrible thing? Doing so was likely a part of Toyota's decision to cancel the PiP nationwide rollout, and stopping production early.

 

Huh? Don't you participate on other forums? Discussions of Volt on GM forums has come to an end. Focus has shifted over to Bolt. It's as if Volt isn't even available anymore. Think about if the online community has that outlook, the ordinary consumer won't give it any thought.

Nope, since my focus has always been cost. Automakers can mark the vehicle to be sold at any price, but it's still the cost to produce that counts. We won't see high-volume unless the configuration is able to sustain profitable sales without assistance.

Who said it was horrible? I simply pointed out what was happening for the sake of moving on to the next steps.

And yes, some of it was to get acknowledge that this was suggested a year ago... which resulted in fierce denial... yet, turned out to be the case.

 

At this point I am holding my horses on Prime as far as space. Could be very good.
Then you have something special.

I want to see official EPA interior space and cargo space, and EU VDA cargo space for Prime.
Believe US EPA spec methods gives Liftbacks opportunity to shift space (on paper) to cargo space, but the total space Cargo+Interior has to add up to the total space. We can quibble about how Toyota is defining cargo space but total space will be interesting, unless that spec is also manipulated on paper by the autos.

 

I waste enough time here.

The Bolt is a shiny, new bauble with little in the amount of hard facts released. That is enough to keep internet speculation and discussion running. Look at all the discussion we have about the Prime, and Toyota has released very little more info since the unveiling.

So the Volt has been forgotten by that crowd. Internet chat is a poor metric to measure how a car available for sale is doing with the ordinary consumer. For that, we have actual sales, and for the first five months of 2016, the Volt is doing better than past years for the same time frame. Monthly Plug-In Sales Scorecard Gen1 leftovers could be boosting the sales, but not enough for to be the sole cause.

And you have proof that the Volt's cost to produce is higher than its price?

But is it happening?

Cars.com has over 3700 listings for new 2016 and 2017 Volts. That is almost a 2 month supply at current sale rates. There are 56 within 50 miles of me, and we are one of the back of the line states for it.

The cargo space measurement for non-sedans is also done by taking actual measurements. Since a car's volume isn't a nice clean shape, but has nooks and crannies, there is some wiggle room on where the measurement is taken that will shift the reported results one way or another.

From what I gather, the EU VDA spec is figured by a method similar to what the EPA uses for trunks. The space is filled up with standard sized boxes, and then the number of boxes used is counted up. Unless the boxes are like puffalumps, and can really be stuffed in there, the reported space will be conservative with most of those nooks and crannies being missed.

 

That's enough to maintain status quo.

The expectation from gen-2 was significant growth... with all the plug-in offerings, not just Volt.

A rate of half-mainstream-minimum is 2,500 per month. Is there any reason not to expect that?

 

Not too impressed with the article myself.
Speculation as to "how" a GM dealership would sell a Volt as opposed as to how a Toyota dealership would sell a Prius?

Well all I can tell you is when I first starting looking at Prius and Hybrids, being at a Toyota dealership was NO GUARANTEE that the salesman would really have any idea of how a Prius worked. This was 6+ years ago, so I hope they have gotten better, but I talked to many TOYOTA sales people who really had no idea about Prius or Hybrids. I had researched a lot, here and other places, so I often would just laugh to myself when I heard some of the explanations of how a Prius worked. Asking about what "B" did, often resulted in very impressive improvised flights of fantasy.

Even when I did buy my Prius, I had to tell my salesperson, who supposedly owned a Prius himself, that Oregon was a CARB state, and so the Hybrid Battery Warranty was extended. He argued that with me, and I never did convince him.

I also believe "training" for both GM sales people and Toyota sales people can happen, and can happen pretty quickly. It doesn't take too much homework, to become pretty well versed in the operation of either vehicle. I also hope/think with the passage of years, the baseline understanding should be growing in both camps.

I really think the "enemy" of plug-in vehicles and hybrids right now, is relatively stable and lower gas prices. For the majority of mainstream buyers, if gasoline is obtainable at less than $3.00 a gallon, they are going to look at whatever ICE vehicle they like the best, and NOT really be so into looking at a plug in or hybrid option.

Let filling up become painful again from the pocket book, and EV alternatives and Hybrids allure increases.

Good becomes great, and the common enemy becomes high gas prices.

 

Plug in sales are generally up over the previous years.

They still have some of the same obstacles as hybrids though; cheap fuel and people's preference for SUVs. The new Rav4 hybrid is the only noteworthy one of that segment. The others are holding steady or down.

For the plug ins, the only real SUV option at the moment is the Model X, which is doing well despite the large price tag.

 

Ask any automotive salesman how most any component of an automobile works and you'll likely get an answer that leaves much to be desired.

• Ask one to explain how an 4-speed automatic transmission works
• How does an air conditioner work
• What's the difference between electronic and mechanical fuel injection?
• What's the difference between turbo chargers and super chargers?

If it doesn't involve getting your signature on a sales order, too many don't care anything about their product.

 

We all see a pattern - as gas prices rise & fall, so do the hybrid sales in many cases. Still, how does one reconcile so-so hybrid sales even with plugin vehicles ostensibly getting better & better? Then, there's those equally confounding 400,000 Model 3 pre-orders, each plunking down $1,000. That's near the yearly Camry sales! Even with low gas prices - Even with no dealership training required. Heck no dealerships. No radio/TV advertising too!
( scratching head)
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Sad part is Musk knows almost every features in his cars than any other auto CEO.

 

I would hazard a guess that some of those 400,000 Model 3 pre-orders would have been hybrid and plug-in buyers if the Model 3 hadn't been introduced 2 years before the car would be delivered.